Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Join Pastors Nick Billardello and Andy Romstad as they teach the Christian faith in a relevant and relatable way. They also talks about other stuff.
Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Revelation 18 - Riches & Spiritual Anesthesia
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Nick & Andy explore Revelation 18, diving into the collapse of "Babylon" and exposing how its ancient traps of consumerism, comfort, and envy hijack our souls today.
- Verses 2 & 4 – The Ultimate Eviction Notice: Nick unpacks the command to "Come out of her, my people.” Why do we keep trying to redecorate our apartments in a burning building?
- Verse 7 – The "Rule as a Queen" Delusion: Comfort is a deadlier spiritual assassin than suffering. Prosperity acts like an anesthesia, convincing us we don't need God.
- Verses 11-13 – When Humans Become Line Items: 1 Timothy 6:10 in real-time. We love money so much that society willingly barters human souls for a cheaper price tag.
- Verse 14 – The Permanent Expiration Date: Buyer's remorse on a cosmic scale. We trap ourselves chasing the "next big thing" to fill an internal spiritual void.
- Verse 20 – The Heavenly Standing Ovation: True justice isn't about malice; the real party starts when global oppression finally ends.
- Verses 23-24 – Sorcery: We are still falling for the same "magic spell" as the Golden Calf—the delusion that material wealth buys ultimate security.
What Paul Prayed for His Friends
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I uh I saw an interesting quote from Tim Keller this week, though the late uh pastor Tim Keller. It said, It's remarkable that in all his writings, Paul's prayers for his friends contain no appeals for changes in their circumstances. Meaning that if you are going through difficult times, Paul would never pray that the difficult times would stop. Paul would pray that you would remain faithful through it, and that difficult times are part of life. But and I would say, in the same, you know, when you talk about success, when you talk about things you're struggling with, all those things, that the greatest prayer we can pray for one another is to remain faithful, is to remain connected to Jesus, is to you know, put put everything we have in his hands and uh just trust that he's working in your life no matter what's going on. And, you know, I think I I I do pray for people's circumstances to improve. I do, but you know, I think that the the there's a good point there in remembering that in the midst of suffering and in the midst of success, you know, it's all Jesus. And if we remember that, then then we'll be on the right track.
Grace Abides
SPEAKER_03Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's word one chapter at a time. Happy Wednesday, everybody. Andy, how are you doing? It is July. Can you believe it's July? Half the year is already over. It is July 1st. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_02Nick, I love the longest days of the year, and uh I love going out walking late at night, and I am shocked. It's already July 1. It seems like just yesterday it was June 1, which I always mark as the beginning of summer. And we have July 4 coming up. Our family's gonna go away for a couple of days. Head up north in classic fashion. Alley got has to be available for jury duty. So we'll see how that works. What about you, Nick? What have you been up to? You were on sabbatical. How is that going?
SPEAKER_03That's right. Second week of sabbatical. And I will I'm here to tell you, Andy, I don't think I'm ever going to retire. The uh the first week was nice. It was it just felt like a week of vacation, right? I was, I had a little medical procedure last week that we don't need to get into, but just nice, and then I got up on this, you know, Monday and I'm like, all right, let's do the things and just kind of like I just I've been studying, I've been reading, and I've been doing some things, and I got some good stuff, but it's like I I just I I love I love what I do, and I just kind of like, all right, I I don't think I could uh I don't think I could retire. I I mean I'm okay with like breaks, but I think I think they're gonna find me in my my desk someday.
SPEAKER_02Hopefully, not too soon. Many years from now. You know, I'm fourth generation Lutheran pastor on two sides, they all die in the saddle. And I think yeah, my dad went back even after he had a TBI, and my grandpa went right back to work. He took six months off and and had a massive heart attack, and his doc sent him right back to work. And oh man, all of them. They just, you know, it's like it becomes your pattern and your habit. And I don't know, maybe work is an addiction. Maybe that's bad. Maybe it's bad. I don't know. I don't know. Spiritual life is really the goal, but you're right, leading a congregation.
SPEAKER_03Uh well, I was you know, I worked at Chrysler before I went to seminary, and you always hear the stories of the guys who work until they're 70 and retire, and then, you know, they they're gone a couple months later.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03It's like I just I could see that happening. Like I just I got it, yeah.
unknownGot it.
SPEAKER_02Statistics are too true. And what I've been thinking about, I'm 58 this year, is that my dad had congestive heart condition at 58. My grandfather Romstead had his first heart attack at 58 in the pool working out. My great grand or my grandfather Klein, my mother's father, had his heart attack at 58 or something like that. It was, I don't know if it was heart attack, but it was something. He died at 58.
SPEAKER_03Oh gosh.
SPEAKER_02And so yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, you better be going to see a cardiologist, Andy.
SPEAKER_02I have my physical next week.
SPEAKER_03Good.
SPEAKER_02So someone uh in South Lake told me I needed to get a physical uh more regularly. So that's right.
SPEAKER_03At least once a year.
Naturalization Ceremony
SPEAKER_03But I gotta tell you about something I did today that was really exciting.
SPEAKER_02What's that?
SPEAKER_03I went to a naturalization ceremony. You know, 4th of July is coming up, 250 years of America. Went to a naturalization ceremony today and watched about 50 people swear it, take the oath of citizenship. And our our one fabulous church musician, Vanessa, she sang the Star Spangled Banner and America the Beautiful. And I gotta tell you, it was just the coolest thing I think I've ever witnessed. Watching these people from all over the world come and take the become citizens of the United States and their families there and their friends there, and there's so much tears and there's so much joy. And Andy, it was just awesome. It was really cool. And it made me think one of the things they said is that you are now a citizen of the United States, and nobody who's here like is more of an American than you, right? We are all equally Americans, and you who have been a citizen for five minutes, and anyone who's been here, you know, that you're a fifth generation American, we're all the same. And I couldn't help but think of the parable of the workers in the vineyard that Jesus tells us in Matthew 20 about the people who come early in the day and people who come every couple hours. There's more and more laborers joining, and then at the end they all get the same, they all get the same pay. And the the ones who started early in the morning started grumbling, like, why aren't we getting more than them? And Jesus is like, it's mine to be, you know, it my grace is it I can be generous with my grace in any way that I please. It's mine. And and and the idea that, you know, the in America, in America, that we have the same values as the church, basically, that the the grace of God is the same for me who was baptized as a baby as it is for somebody who was baptized three minutes ago in the same way that someone who just took the oath of of of citizenship is is as much as American as you know as any one of us who was born in America and been in America in our whole life. And I just thought that it was a really cool and powerful experience. And and I'm glad I took my daughter to go see it. My 11-year-old daughter, she uh told her a little bit on the way there about you know my great-grandparents coming over. And uh yeah, it was it was really cool. I was really I was really glad to be there and to witness that.
SPEAKER_02Very cool, Nick. Very you have a good sermon illustration from that, and also I can't think of a better experience to have on the 250th anniversary of the U.S., you know, this weekend, July 4th. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was profound. It was really uh if you ever have a chance to go, I highly recommend it to everybody who's listening. If it's ever something that you hear is gonna happen, it's 30 minutes and it's just it's a I mean, it's it really makes you feel proud to be an American. And and and and it's you know, you the the folks who who become citizens, they're so excited, they're so happy. And just to say congratulations to them, they're just you know, they're it's really a cool thing.
SPEAKER_02That is awesome. Let's uh we can use that as a subheader for this chapter. Proud to be an American. That's awesome. That's the only naturalization story I have is there was a woman from the church I grew up in, a Canadian, who became a citizen. And apparently then, maybe they still do now, there's a test. You have to learn a certain amount of history. And so she studied for the test and was all ready. And when it she went through the either before or after, I don't I don't know quite the order. The uh judge said, Oh, it's okay. You know the stuff. You don't need to take the test. And she goes, I studied for this, I prepared. There's no way I'm not taking that test. I will take that test. And so he said, Fine, sure. So she took it, and all I know is she uh And she passed. She passed.
SPEAKER_03So I thought it was funny at the very end they got their certificates and everything, and and the guy who was a director of immigration, I don't know one of the immigration organizations said, uh, okay, now you have to sign it where it says signature, and you have to sign it in black ink. It has to be in black ink. If you sign it in blue ink and take it to the post office to get your passport, they will you can get they will make you get another one and it will take 12 months for you to get another one. That's right.
SPEAKER_02It's like the wedding licenses, Nick, that you and I sign. They absolutely need to be legible and they need black ink, at least around here.
SPEAKER_03Are you not nervous signing those? I am so nervous signing them. First, I want to have like nice my nicest handwriting because people are gonna hold on to these, and I don't want to make a mistake because you can't cross anything. I mean, there's like you can't I am always nervous when I'm filling out a wedding license.
Come Out of Babylon: The Fall and Your Vocation
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03We're getting towards the end of Revelation.
SPEAKER_02I know. I was gonna say the same thing. Yay.
SPEAKER_03Revelation today.
SPEAKER_02I keep running into people or seeing at other churches where they're doing work on Revelation. So uh kind of fun to be getting close to the end.
SPEAKER_03And do you look at all their stuff and say, oh, that is so wrong? That is so wrong, you post-millennialist. Well, uh, Revelation 18, one of the most surprisingly relevant chapters in the book of Revelation. It's not just about the fall of Babylon, Andy, it's about the collapse of every culture, economy, and system that asks us to love, comfort, and and and put our trust in anything other than God. And so we jump right in. We're gonna start at verse 2, then we're gonna jump ahead to verse 4. It says, fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great. And then in verse 4 it says, Come out of her, my people. Come out of her, come out of Babylon, my people. So, Andy, how do Christians live in the world without becoming of the world? And where do you personally find that line the hardest to draw today?
SPEAKER_02Well, Nick, I think that we try, I think we think that we do. I don't think that we really accomplish it. And I was thinking about that question, I'm thinking all over the place where we're not quite making the distinction fully. And often that's where if you were to really nail someone down as to what their greatest allegiance is, is it Jesus' Lord or something else? I mean, that's a that's a tough one. I mean, we say that we live in the world by engaging with a society, but avoiding being of it. You know, in other words, we don't let culture and comfort and wealth dictate our allegiances. But, you know, it kind of does. Think about all the material comforts, think about consumerism, think about all of those things that replace a mission of Christ as being primary. And I think it's difficult, too, to really fully understand or to live into this. Think about uh Isaiah 52, where God commands the Jewish exiles living in the Empire of Babylon to depart, to remain holy, to separate themselves from its pagan culture. Well, what does that mean? I mean, the verse there is depart, depart, go out from there, touch no unclean thing, come out from it and be pure. And yeah, okay. I mean, we're not old covenant people. We live under the new covenant. John 17 talks about in the high priestly prayer, Jesus says his disciples, same idea here, are not of the world, just as he is not of the world. And he prays not for God to take them out of the world, which I mean you often hear people say, but to protect them from the evil one within the world. So primary allegiance is Christ, Jesus is Lord. We live in a society in which our mission, our vocation as such is not our job, but our vac our vocation is Christ. And finding those lines, boy, that's a tough one, Nick.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think first we should say that Jesus never isolated himself from the world. He never saw himself as uh you know as uh l having to live apart from from the culture that he lived in. He he attended weddings, he ate with sinners, he worked a job, he went to parties, he was a guy who was in the world. And he but he wasn't of the world. And I think Jesus saw the world, or if we want to call it Babylon, not as something to escape, but as something that darkness where light needs to be shined. And and that's that's what he was, and I think that's what he is calling us to do. We are not called called to escape Babylon. We're not called to escape the world, but we're called to be witnesses to to God uh inside of it. And so, you know, we can be part of it without being uh putting all our faith and trust in it. Uh, you know, one of the things I think we need to continually ask ourselves is what makes me anxious when I imagine it going away? What what makes me anxious when I imagine losing it? And if it's something that the you know the world is offering to you, then I think we maybe have set our feet a little too deep in the world. But I think like I think when we're talking about Babylon and and the issues with Babylon, I think it's always present, but I think that it might change with each generation about you know what what that thing is in our world that is causing us to uh that is asking for our trust and our hope. And and so, you know, I I think when we figure out what that is, you know, I think that there's a good opportunity there to kind of distance ourselves from that a little bit, but recognizing that, you know, we're we're not called to be escapists, we're not called to be, you know, outside of the world, but we live in it to proclaim the good news of God in it. So that's that's what I think we need to do is if we if we ever find ourselves in a place where something becomes more important than our faith, then I think we need to take a big step back and reevaluate things.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. You are the light of the world, you are the salt of the earth, and that's what Jesus said. So I mean, also Jesus created people, I mean humanity creation. We are created in the image of God. Sometimes when people say they just want to get out of this life, it's, you know, why is that? We have a mission here, you know. So, all right, we keep moving on. Verse seven. This is kind of funny. She glorified herself and lived luxuriously, luxuriously. So give her a like measure of torment and grief, since in her heart she says, I rule as a queen, I am no widow, and I will never see grief. Pretty
Why Does Prosperity Often Tell People They Dont Need God?
SPEAKER_02good verse. So, Nick, why does prosperity often convince people they don't need God? And do you think comfort is actually a greater spiritual danger than suffering?
SPEAKER_03That would be a good confirmation verse right there. I rule as a queen. Why does prosperity often convince us we don't need God? Because you know, success often whispers in our ear, you've got this, congratulations, you've done this. You know, you you did this all yourself, and congratulations to you, and you don't need anything. You don't need help from anyone, you don't need God. But suffering reminds us you've always needed God, you've always needed help. When we suffer, we we re you know, if we're if we reach the mountaintop by ourselves and we're so excited about who we are when we suffer, we look at that's when we need to be supported, and when when we look around and say, I uh I need other people. I need, you know, I need love, I need community, I need people to help. So I think I think when we you know success leads to comfort and cuff comfort often leads to uh entitlement. Instead of thanking God, we begin assuming we deserve all that we have. And I think the the greatest danger isn't success, but it's forgetting forgetting who helped us get there, forgetting the one who gave us what we need, forgetting God, and forgetting all the others that helped us get where we are. You know, I I this naturalization service that I was just at a couple hours ago, it made me think about, you know, my life is what it is today because three generations ago, I had family members across, you know, in Europe who got on a boat and didn't, you know, left for America with nothing in their pockets and who who who have worked really hard to make a life, not so that their lives would be better, so their lives would be better, but but knowing that it meant that their children and their grandchildren and their great-grandchildren would have a better place and more opportunities. And so, you know, I think that when we think about the the lives that we live today, the success that we have today, the the education that we have today, all of that stuff we have today is because someone some time ago, you know, got on a boat or whatever and and you know, took the chance to come to America. And and so I just that's been on my mind, you know, all day. And but I think it's you know, it's nothing we do, we accomplish on our own. I mean, maybe maybe we we're able to go out and accomplish something, but that's because you know, somebody helped us, somebody helped us get to where we are. And maybe somebody didn't even help us as a child with education, but but somebody got us here. And and and and I think you know, that's the story of God and working in the lives of our ancestors and and the courage and and and them, you know, taking out take taking brave steps to help change their the course of their family going forward. So I think that's an important part of
Is Comfort a greater Spiritual Danger than Suffering?
SPEAKER_03it. But you know, is comfort a greater spiritual danger than suffering? I think so. I think so. You know, when you think about all the places that the church is growing, Africa, China, Iran, not the wealthiest of nations. But when you look at what the church is doing in the wealthy nations, the you know, comfort, I think, can slowly put the church to sleep. We get too comfortable and we just slowly put ourselves to sleep. And I think that's happening all over the world in the uh in the the so-called wealthy nations. So what do you think, Andy?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I mean, American civic religion is works, and Lutheran Protestant religion, you know, and true beyond that as well, is grace. We're saved by the grace of God, which comes through faith alone and not by our own works or merit. And American civic religion, I say, is works because most people say, hey, you know, I lead a good life. I do good deeds, I take care of my kids, I go to work, I, I, you know, I pay my taxes, I'm a nice guy, I'm I'm doing good stuff. God is gonna reward me in the end. And it's really all about what I do. And Christian faith is so much about, you know, is is relationship with Christ, not about works. And the whole Lutheran project was really pretty much about are we saved by works or are we saved by the grace alone, the grace of God, which comes through faith alone. I think, you know, and I preached on this on Sunday a little bit. I mean, Americans just kind of take God for granted and really don't seek the Lord unless suffering of some sort happens in their life, which is what we're talking about. Because prosperity, I mean, we're not talking about being rich. We're talking about not having, you know, extreme needs, you know, life-threatening needs. And prosperity fosters an illusion of self-sufficiency. You know, I control my destiny. I don't really need a savior or Christ or anything else. And that's why it's a spiritual danger. We're not saying that it's a better life to have all of those pieces, but you sort of forget who God is and you forget what it means to be a Christian, to be a person of faith, to live in relationship with the Lord, the Lord's mission as opposed to whatever my secret or shadow mission happens to be. I mean, you know, one of the great New Testament parallels in that is a rich fool in Luke 12. And he just basically relies on his abundance, his, you know, he says, you know, his soul has ample goods laid up for many years. And I mean, that is a classic American illustration. And I'm good, you know, and he's unaware that God would require his very soul that night. I heard a sermon on that 35 years ago that I still remember 35, 30, somewhere between 30 and 35. And it was, you know, just a modern parallel of that. A guy who's very successful in business, making a lot of money, but works hard, works really hard, works really hard, brings work home every night, brings his briefcase. He's working late into the night, and you know, and then has a massive heart attack and and dies. And, you know, and everyone stands up and says, what an upstanding citizen this guy was, and what a hard worker, and all of that. And, you know, in this guy's, you know, kind of metaphor, his allegory, so to speak, about what this man's life was about, you know, you know, basically, I can't remember how he said it exactly, but stencil on that man's you know, grave marker is not great man, great person, wonderful, you know, whatever, but it just says fool, you fool, because that is the that is the point of the story. You've given your life for all the wrong things. And Nick, I'm getting off topic a little bit, but I think that, you know, that is the danger that we all live it with.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I uh I saw an interesting quote from Tim Keller this week, the the late uh pastor Tim Keller. It said, It's remarkable that in all his writings, Paul's prayers for his friends contain no appeals for changes in their circumstances, meaning that if you are going through difficult times, Paul would never pray that the difficult times would stop. Paul would pray that you would remain faithful through it, and that difficult times are part of life. But and I would say, in the same, you know, when you talk about success, when you talk about things you're struggling with, all those things, that the greatest prayer we can pray for one another is to remain faithful, is to remain connected to Jesus, is to re you know, put put everything we have in his hands and uh just trust that he's working in your life no matter what's going on. And you know, I think I I I do pray for people's circumstances to improve. I do, but you know, I think that the the there's a good point there in remembering that it in the midst of suffering and in the midst of success, you know, it's all Jesus. And if we remember that then then we'll be on the right track. Sorry about that moment of silence there, folks.
Rich People in Leviticus
SPEAKER_03We are moving on to verses 11 through 13. And I gotta say, this is I'm gonna cut cut through a little bit of it here. We're gonna start verse 11 and then cut the cut to 13 because it's it's just a list of stuff for rich people really for from back 2,000 years ago.
SPEAKER_01Nick, I have all this stuff by the way.
SPEAKER_03Well maybe we should go through it. It'd be kind of funny. And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her since no one buys their cargo anymore. Cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet, all kinds of scented wood. Andy, do you have a lot of scented wood? All articles of ivory, all articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, cinnamon? Did you know cinnamon was it was for the wealthy back then?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, I had my Ceylon cinnamon this morning, Nick, in my coffee.
SPEAKER_03Spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, olive oil, choice flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, slaves, and human lives. And last but not least, human lives. So merchants mourn the loss of their business, but really don't care for their fellow people. So
When Profit Becomes More Important Than People?
SPEAKER_03this could be a big question here, Andy, but where in our culture has profit become more important than people?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean it it depends on how you gauge and who you believe and but the short answer would be everything all over the place. And one of the ways that Americans miss this I think is that you know we talk about you know all our fancy tech and our cell phones. I'm holding my iPhone right now. And you know early on with the iPhone we didn't realize that I mean you know I'm not gonna get in any legal trouble here by naming companies, but there were cell phone companies whose components that were absolutely necessary for these technological devices were being produced by child labor. And nobody knew that. And when it became public then the companies changed. And you know we have solar we talk green energy all the time but the same is true of green energy. There are elements that are absolutely necessary for green energy and just because of their location in the United States they won't allow them you know good or bad you decide to be mined but in other places of the world where there aren't protections or controls. I mean there are people, young children out there working the mines to get absolutely necessary minerals. And I've read articles on that and it's somewhat horrifying and shocking to us and they keep it all a secret, of course I mean or kind of low-key it just because people would be outraged, just horribly offended by what is happening. So that's I mean that's just one example. You know, I believe in a pre-marketplace because I think that produces the best for the most and it maximizes efficiency in production. I'm not making a socialist argument I'm not a socialist although it's interesting that my father was and we had many discussions over that. So and the other piece on this Nick is what's amazing about our lives is we complain all the time somebody else has more. I mean we we fail to realize how envy is a driving metaphor of much of the conversation someone else has more therefore I'm a victim. Someone else has more therefore I'm getting ripped off. And the truth is we most of us live as kings with things which other people couldn't imagine, you know, and haven't had in history. But the truth is all of that, you know, all of those sorts of envy, resentment, bitterness, all of those things do, you know, damage the soul in 1 Timothy it talks about the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. It doesn't say money is evil, but it says money is a root of all kinds of evil. And people, it's just naming reality eager for money, have wandered from the faith and interesting how it ends. It says they have pierced themselves with many griefs. And I could go on but Nick thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah I mean I think right at the top I think you have to talk you talked about child labor but you know slavery and human trafficking that's last thing I saw there's like estimated 50 million people in the world more more more slaves slave than ever one in 200 people. And so you know that's that's definitely part of the equation and we we could spend hours talking about that
Technology
SPEAKER_03but then you you brought up technology and I think technology yes you talked about how you know children are mining to help but but the the way we use technology I mean the the there there's free apps on these phones that you know it doesn't cost any there's no currency except our attention right that's that's what we're giving these apps is our attention and when we're giving our attention to something we're holding in our hands and staring down at, you know, we're we're neglecting people. If we're if we're giving our attention to playing you know games on our phones or whatever it might be we're neglecting people and so that's putting you know people secondary. I think you can go to healthcare I think we've all heard stories or we may have experienced about how insurance companies you know where a profit seems to come before the patient you can look at the sports you know college college sports professional sports even celebrities where where those people are treated like investments instead of human beings and so we're putting you know putting more monetizing them and then we as people we build them up and then we love watching them fall. You know and then there's you could talk about corporations corporations that are always trying to maximize profit but I think what Revelation is doing is revelation is pointing the finger at us. It's pointing the finger at the the the reader at anyone who hears this to say you know we're the ones who create the demand. The merchants only sell because people buy and so you know Babylon isn't just about you know corporations and CEOs it's about consumers. It's about it's about recognizing what's truly important in life and not not setting our not having our hearts set into stuff into material stuff. And uh you know if if if there's something we don't agree with then we should you know we we need to we need to speak with our wallets as much as with our mouths. So Andy any thoughts on that well a couple more thoughts.
SPEAKER_02I mean so much of it is not in my backyard you know we want all these things but we don't want you know some of what comes with them in our own backyard so we demand that someone else do it. You know Rich Man and Lazarus is a natural parallel to this which is you know pretty tough teaching passage. I remember hearing it as a kid and it stuck with me. And you know if you don't know that story the rich man you know had luxury and splendor every day and he dies and loses it all of course and ends up in torment and while Lazarus the one who was asking you know for at least a sip of water or something to relieve his torment is comforted and the story is pretty heavy because it says it's for eternity. And if I'm remembering this story correctly Lazarus says well send a prophet or send somebody to warn my brothers about this. I don't want them to go through it.
SPEAKER_03And you know the the end of the story is well you know they can listen to the prophets and if they haven't listened to the prophets they're not going to listen to anyone that I'm gonna send pretty pretty harsh scripture Nick Yeah yeah that's when you put when you put your own comfort above the needs of others that's you know that's Lazarus type or or that's the rich man you know not not Lazarus but the the rich man in the story that's that type of behavior. And it's important to remember those who need help.
SPEAKER_02But we all do it and we all come up with scenarios around around not doing this. For instance what I'm talking about is when I was a kid I read this passage and I looked at my expensive in my mind stereo gear in my room, right? This is like middle school age thinking and I thought well if I ever know I'm gonna die, man, I'm gonna sell that and and give that money to the poor so that I don't have to go through this. And it's just like the games we play I think it's cool that I was taking scripture seriously as a kid and coming up with a plan. But the other side of that is I mean as adults to what degree do we take it seriously? But if if you're looking for the other side of that question, I mean there are passages like the poor you will always have with you and I I could go on, but I mean the there that's not the only cause I'll say that that's one way of putting it that's not the only cause of people being without in our culture. And an additional one is wisdom. A lot of the cause for people being without you know human suffering is just incredibly bad decision making when dealing all week with someone who you know that's a reality and how do we help them in the midst of that and the question I've been asking is how do you help people make better decisions? Nick?
SPEAKER_03It's hard. It's hard I you know you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. So yeah.
The Next Thing Never Satisfies
SPEAKER_03Well Andy let's uh let's jump back to back into Revelation 18. What do you got for verse 14?
SPEAKER_02The fruit you longed for is gone from you and all your delicacies and your splendor are lost to you never to be found again. So Nick have you ever gotten something you desperately wanted this is so great. Only to discover it didn't satisfy you shocking the way you expected why do we keep believing Nick that the next thing will the fruit you longed for it just doesn't satisfy.
SPEAKER_03Well you know everyone has a story where everyone everyone does this happen to everybody you want the dream job or you want the new house or the promotion or the new car or you want to get to retirement and then you you know it you want to get to sabbatical right you just three more months and I'm out sabbatical just gotta get there and then you're it's a week later and you're like oh I'm ready to go back to work right or you know the the excitement excitement will last for some kind of time and then it life becomes normal again. And it's not that those things are bad. It's not that those things are bad at you know getting a new house or a new job or whatever but but they're simply too small to give you true peace and joy. Any material thing in this world is too small to give you peace and joy because they don't love us unconditionally only Christ does that. And so in life you there's always another mountain you climb to the top of the mountain and and and there's always another mountain and and you know there we have this like thought in our mind I'll be happy when but it the thing about Babylon is it the the finish line constantly moves. And you know when we when we live in the I'll be happy when mindset there it we just never reach the point where we find happiness because all those things are too small to give us the true peace and joy that comes from Jesus. And so as people of faith we we we we trust in Jesus and we get the the unconditional love that that only christ can offer and that that those promises that come from that unconditional love, the peace, the joy, that's the that's the foundation that we live our life on. So Andy? The next thing will never satisfy that's pretty much all there is to say and it's sometimes like the joy is in looking forward to something and then we experience it and we're like well that wasn't that good and well maybe the next thing will be I don't I don't know why we ever lose that but we keep trying don't we keep trying keep trying the next thing oh yeah Nick verse 20 rejoice over her O heaven you saints and apostles and prophets for God has condemned her condemnation of you. So rejoice you believers for God has condemned Babylon
Celebrating Gods Judgment
SPEAKER_03so Andy is it ever appropriate for Christians to celebrate God's judgment and how do we balance justice with Jesus' command to love our enemies?
SPEAKER_02That great question one that everyday Christians wrestle with all the time maybe you're familiar with the old, I think it's German phrase Schadenfreude, which means joy in someone else's misery that we find joy when our opponent or the opposition is suffering. I think that that is way too real for people and it's certainly not a Christian comment. But can we celebrate judgment is the question and yes but not out of malice but because it vindicates righteousness and we celebrate justice when it ends oppression. Now we can debate on what oppression is and when people have it coming and we can debate what righteousness is but we don't want to celebrate someone else's bad ending. And it is an everyday practice people don't necessarily see this that we can love our enemies now we can desire their salvation while trusting God's final justice. I was at a Bible study this morning one of the questions was this you know could Hitler have been saved? It's a classic question on this topic. And I mean this kind of thing is all over the Bible I mentioned the New Testament it's also in the Old Testament and Miriam and the Israelites sang to celebrate God's triumph over Pharaoh's oppressive army. And I mean that's something to celebrate and kind of a cool side story on that is we at least used to, I'm not sure if we still do, had a Miriam circle, right? I did the funeral for a woman who was part of the Miriam circle for 50 years. A circle by the way is a small group I think small group's much better way to understand it. And one of the things that they did like 40, 50 years ago was they instead of having garage sales and pocketing some cash, I think I've told this story before, they said what if we took all our stuff, put it together, sold it, and then gave all the money to people in need. And they did and that grew it became a movement. The church by the way is always a movement not an institution. And now they have their own building they bought a building for a million bucks and their yearly budget is a million bucks and last year they gave away 6000 to people in need just in our community. And it's a beautiful thing they just share it with the churches to give away to people in need. And our church gets to give away something like I think it's like you know five, six thousand bucks a year to like many, many, many recipients in small amounts of like a hundred or two hundred when they can prove legitimate need in order to help people. And it's it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03So Nick Yeah well that does that's a that's an amazing ministry that started so many years ago. I I do just to to go back to the question a little bit I think I you know what you said is that it was they're not celebrating revenge they're celebrating justice and I think that's an important part you know if if evil is never judged if evil is never stopped then evil wins and it's important that we know that it's God's people that that God stops evil. We don't rejoice because enemies suffer but you know we we we rejoice because evil evil is defeated.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah Matt you made an important important point there and so often we say things like well who am I to judge and we have kind of a false humility but I mean there are things to judge right or wrong I I think and people argue and debate over that I think a real helpful way to understand that is ethics. And there are four schools of ethics I think what are they consequentialism which is the ends are what matter uh deontology which is where I think it's the the means never justify the ends. I think there's you know the love ethic which is what is love in this situation. And then there's virtue ethics my job is to lead and live a virtuous life and that will produce fruits of its own. I could be forgetting one wonderful book by one of my seminary profs his name was Jim Burtness and it's just called consequentialism and it's just a comparison of the four ethical systems because pretty typically when people are arguing over politics or or society or you know even you know political systems as a whole, uh what they're really arguing are over the ethical systems and to the degree to which I'm responsible for my neighbor's economic situation. And I have found that that's often a very healthy framework to use to understand that because typically we're arguing for one of the four systems of ethics. And my final paper for ethics back in the early 90s was that we had to write a 20 page paper justifying our reasoning for one of the four ethical systems. And so much of the debates I hear today, people get all passionate about how evil or wrong the opposition is and what I'm doing meanwhile is just you know putting them into one of the four categories. I completely understand what they're arguing whether or
Manual Typewriters
SPEAKER_02not I agree with it.
SPEAKER_03Nick so back in the early 90s writing a 20 page paper was that with a typewriter?
SPEAKER_02How'd you that's awesome. Nick, I printed it on my dot matrix printer I'm not sure if it had the little holes on the side that would move move the paper forward but it was on my dot matrix printer Nick with ink and you know the trick with a 20 page paper and I failed at this part was to pick the font that was 12 point but the biggest widest font so that you could get to 20 pages sooner. Oh wow and nowadays Nick I have no trouble coming up with way more words than I need. But back in the day.
SPEAKER_03I remember high school we didn't have a we didn't have a computer at home or we did but I we we didn't have like a computer with a printer at home so I if something needed to be typed you'd either have to use the typewriter in the like library or I would just pay one of my friends to do it. I would handwrite and be like here you type it up and I'll pay you to do it. But I can't imagine what life is like was like before that.
SPEAKER_02I always have kept I have one right up on the shelf above me manual typewriters Nick some of my when I moved to Cambridge I would write first drafts on my manual typewriter on the porch of the parsonage on the screen porch and yeah I miss those days. I should get that out Nick you might be my inspiration to get my typewriter out. But just a note on that they've done studies on how the mind works with handwriting or writing on paper with pen versus the computer and there's a creative element that gets lost when we are writing on a computer in the versus handwriting it out. There's something different that happens in the mind. So Nick?
SPEAKER_03They must have studied someone of your generation who like is that done both.
SPEAKER_02Because your generation Nick doesn't know cursive is that correct did you learn I know cursive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. All right I can't write it pretty but I know how to do it.
SPEAKER_02Verses 23 to 24 of Revelation 18 your merchants were the world's important people and all nations were deceived by your sorcery and in you was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slaughtered on the earth okay that's that's saying something.
What Are the Magic Spells in Our Culture?
SPEAKER_02So Nick uh the question is what are some of the magic spells so to speak in our culture today? In other words what lies do people keep believing even though those lies never seem to deliver what they promise?
SPEAKER_03Well I think we've already hit on a few of them consumerism if you buy this you'll always be you'll finally be the person you've always wanted to be, right? That's, you know, you could say advertising is modern enchantment makes you think something that trying to s trying to make you believe something we you to we talked a little bit about identity about you know it's it's all about me you know it's uh it's all about what I've done instead of looking to Jesus to say that you know what I have is all a gift and I I you know called to be a good steward of what God has given me. We've talked about technology right technology promises connection and yet you know loneliness is like an all-time high like continues rise like social media is not it it can be good but it's led to a lot of difficult con like actual it is fractured relationships right it it has probably fractured more relationships than it's helped and so you know people feel isolated so this idea that technology helps us connect more but does it really but I think the biggest maybe this is that you know and you talked about this Luke 12 the rich fool in Lazarus like you have plenty of time or no the the the the the one who was was rich fool the rich guy in Lazarus was that Luke 12 I remember you saying Luke 12 about 20 minutes ago but you know the idea that you have plenty of time but tonight is the night that can that your you know God is going to call good tonight is it and you know the the idea is that Babylon always tells us you can deal with God later but Jesus continually says today you know do not put things off do it today. Do the important things today and I think that's probably one of the one of the lies that we so often get caught up in is that I'll just put it off until later and you know I'll try and I'll try and get right with God later even though you know God has gotten right with us and and all those things. So you know I think that we've hit on a lot of
Who Is More Satisfied?
SPEAKER_03that stuff already. So any thoughts Andy?
SPEAKER_02Mick who's more satisfied someone with satisf $7 million or someone with seven children. The answer to that question is the person with seven children is more satisfied because they don't want any more. And then to answer your other question, Luke 16 is the rich man in Lazarus. Although if you and I were talking about that, Nick, I would always go with your answer over mine, citing what biblical chapter it was from.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was just citing you.
SPEAKER_02So Oh okay. And then, I mean, the question for God is, man, okay, if we're supposed to live this way, why is everyone, you know, human nature stuck in this whole idea of more goods will make us happy and we need more, more, more. I mean, what do we say as little kids, more? And we say mine. And it's a question for creation. And how do we overcome that really in many ways? Understanding all of what we've been talking about today is really, you know, spiritual maturity and, you know, what life is
Warren Buffett on the Giving Pledge
SPEAKER_02to be about. One of the things that I like, you know, we hear about money and who has money. And, you know, people define rich. Anyone is rich if they have just a little bit more than you do, then they're rich. And I I've seen this forever, and I've seen it in myself. Oh, they're rich, you know. And well, good grief. I mean, the number, I mean, how many people like that we know had don't have two cars, Nick, you know, that have two, three drivers that don't have two cars. I mean, nearly everybody, but that is just a small percentage of the world population. And and stories like this all over scripture. I mean, the golden calf in Exodus 32, the Israelites fall for this same, you know, illusion that a man-made idol could provide the security that God gives. And I mean, it's it human nature is fallen, and and our own lives just prove that story. And so, how do we overcome it? I was looking for illustrations on the one of the things I think is kind of cool. It's a Warren Buffett thing, and I have read over the years a lot of Buffett and really like his common sense in the same common sense that Charlie Munger had, but it's the giving pledge. And I think it was started in 2010 by Buffett and some others, you know, just to encourage people that have these billions and billions to dedicate the majority of their wealth to philanthropy, uh, you know, either during their lifetime or in their wills. And it's kind of a cool thing. He buffeted his so funny, he goes, Yeah, he goes, My kids don't need all this money. And then there's all the stories. It was uh Morgan Housel, who has a great podcast, mostly about money, who talked about all of the super rich families, like the Vanderbilts and all the rest of it. Most of all the money in those, like not just rich people, but incredible empires and estates, most all the money has been spent by the third generation. It's all gone. And one of the questions is how can you learn and teach future generations to handle money in such a way that it's stewarded as opposed to spent, especially in all the ways that we talked about today? And I think that's one of the crucial lessons you can teach your kids because whatever life you give them, they're gonna assume that as natural and also assume that is deserved. And just one other comment about Buffett, this is interesting too. He said he was really good at growing and investing money, but that, and obviously he's still around, but not very good at knowing how to give it away. So he knew how to invest it and grow it, but he was always look for who are the super high achievers who know how to give it away most efficiently and productively. And I I really like that because it wasn't just, hey, I'm just gonna, you know, pay it in taxes or whatever, but I'm gonna figure out who can make maximize societal good, and I'm gonna channel funds through that cause, knowing that I can't do everything, but I can do something. Nick?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh a couple things that just came to mind. I there was a podcast that came out that I saw maybe yesterday, like two really famous celebrities, really wealthy people who make movies. I can't remember who it was, but they talked about how back when we were younger, you know, like really wealthy people would would do important things with their money, like build hospitals and build libraries and stuff. And why isn't anyone doing that today? And and they're probably each worth a hundred million dollars. And they're looking at like the wealthy, why aren't the wealthy people doing, you know, certainly not us. We're not we're only worth like a hundred million, but why, you know, and it's like you know, we can all contribute to the society, we can all help others, we can all do things. But you know, I I've heard of this giving pledge where these you know and and I just think that like from a stewardship perspective, why aren't you just giving why aren't you if you have a hundred billion dollars and you're gonna after you die you're gonna give away, why don't you give it away now? What what what are you know imagine the good you can do in the world now with it? I mean, it's like what just and the joy that you would have helping others now. I I just think that there's so much money tied up that's when I die, I'm gonna leave all the and Nick, you're correct.
SPEAKER_02To be fair, Buffett is giving away a portion of his estate every year, and we're talking billions and billions. And then secondly, we sort of tend when we talk about rich, we sort of either indirectly or directly assume money, and it's not really money, it's portions of, you know, companies and businesses. I own a percentage of this business which over time grows. And so it's not always that simple. But I get what you're saying is well, if you have a lot of money and resources now, how can you maximize the societal good right now instead of waiting? So is that what you're getting at?
SPEAKER_03Yes. And I mean, to to take it just a step further, you know, if you're I think this was a Dave Ramsey call, you know, if you have millions of dollars and your children are struggling, why don't you just help them now? You know, it's it's it it it if you're gonna leave them three million dollars after you die, just help them not, type of thing. You know, that that was a Dave Ramsey call from, I think, a couple weeks ago. But I don't know if you listen to Dave Ramsey or not.
SPEAKER_02But uh anyway, love Dave Ramsey's show, and we try to follow financial peace, and my wife Allie, with a friend, co-leads it. And we haven't had one very recently, but when we got married, we had to do our Allie insisted that we do our budget on our honeymoon. So we did our budget on our honeymoon, and the first two years of our marriage, Nick, my budget got cut. I uh I married my in-house accountant who is really on top of these things.
SPEAKER_03Good thing you're a low maintenance man. I wish. That's
$1,500 Wedding
SPEAKER_03great. So so what I gotta know, where was the honeymoon? Where'd you guys go?
SPEAKER_02We went for free. You know that we spent less than $1,500 on our entire wedding, every expense. And then a relative gave us a timeshare, about a you know, part of a week in Lake Tahoe. All we had to do is fly ourselves out there and feed ourselves. So that's what we did.
SPEAKER_03That's pretty awesome. $1,500 for the whole wedding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we never made it to our own reception. See, that's why I laugh when I don't laugh. Tens and tens of thousands of dollars are being spent on these wedding venues and musicians and dresses and music and all this stuff. And meanwhile, you know, I did the math. You can do a wedding at my church for 10% of the cost of these big deals. And that includes like the musician and the preacher in the building. It's it okay.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna get off my you never made it to your reception?
SPEAKER_02No, we are. Nick, we had I thought was it 720 or 780 people at our wedding? And the receiving line was so long, was going to be so long, we told people to go to the reception first and then get in the receiving line when it got short. And so by the time that the receiving line was done, everyone else had been to the reception. All the food was gone, all the punch was gone. By the way, we served Lutheran Jell O, Nick, at our wedding reception.
SPEAKER_01That cello shot.
SPEAKER_02We had it at the church, Nick, because it was cheaper. And and we uh then we headed off on our honeymoon. Yeah. There was a Vikings game that night, though, that I insisted on watching.
SPEAKER_03That's great. Uh I just did a wedding about two weeks ago, and it you know how much it costs? Oh, a wedding license costs in the state of Oklahoma? $50. So it does not it doesn't cost a lot of money to get married, but it costs a lot to have a wedding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's little truth there.
Revelation 18: When the Kingdom of God Ascends
SPEAKER_02Little truth.
SPEAKER_03All right, so here that's Revelation 18. The it what's important to realize, I I think that's kind of to wrap this up here, is that Babylon doesn't collapse because Christians defeat Babylon. It collapsed because Jesus Jesus wins. Uh, and so our hope is that at one day every false kingdom will fall, not by our strength, but by the power of Jesus. And so this is this is a weird chapter. I mean, a lot of stuff is but uh I hope you read this or hear this with a hopeful tone because it reminds us that no matter how impressive Babylon looks today, it is ultimately temporary while the kingdom of Christ is forever. And so that that's the what's important for us to remember as we read through these difficult parts of Revelation. And we're getting really close to the end, and we'll be we will be back soon with Revelation 19. So thank you so much for listening. Andy, thank you. Always a pleasure to talk through Revelation with you, and we got to figure out where we're going once we're done with Revelation.
SPEAKER_02All right. Amen. Talk to you soon, Nick.