Revelation 17 - The Great Prostitute?

In this week's Grace Abides podcast, Nick & Andy strip away the sanitized versions of modern faith and dive straight into the terrifying imagery of Revelation 17, a mirror held up to our own hearts.

Here are the provocative questions driving this week's discussion:

• Who or what is the "great prostitute"?
• What subtle, modern idols are completely intoxicating our spirits?
• Where exactly do modern Christians draw the line before becoming spiritually compromised by greed?
• Why has bloody persecution consistently purified the church, while comfort has systematically weakened it?
• If the Lamb's army is called, chosen, and faithful, which mark do we fail at most today?
• Why is evil fundamentally engineered to be self-destructive?
• Is this warning merely historical, or a recurring blueprint of corruption happening right now?

Transcript

The Sin of Bitterness

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Sin contains the seeds of its own destruction. Um, you know, uh they alliances collapse just because the the things that shaped them will destroy them. And uh evil is ultimately self-destructive. And I think in people's lives, the primary example of that is bitterness. Uh you know, I I preached about this a little bit last Sunday. I mean, I will be talking to people who will bring up experiences 30, 40 years ago they're still bitter about.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's word one chapter at a time.

No Shortage: Grace Abides Podcast

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hey everybody, thanks for tuning in to the No Shortage Podcast. I'm sorry, the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy. Andy, what did I do there? I went back to the old uh old title. How you doing, buddy? It's been two weeks. You doing all right?

SPEAKER_01 1:14

A little retro. Yeah, Nick, you know, I was gonna do this without you, and I invited Emily. After you called in sick, I invited Emily to do a podcast, and she called in sick. And so I guess I'm the only one who was able to pull it off, but I didn't do one, Nick. I I figured it would uh I needed you guys. So um I'm glad to have a lot of.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

You could have gone solo.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

I got a customer. People want to hear what you have to say. That's great. I I totally could have. Would

Vacation Bible School

SPEAKER_01 1:44

have been fun. What is going on? Did I hear you got some VBS going on down there in Texas, Nick?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

We have had a wonderful month here in Texas. We are first week we did feed our kids every day. We went out and we fed local kids, and then we had a mission trip last week. This week we have VBS, so we got kids everywhere on campus. It is so fun watching the older kids teach the younger kids Bible stories. And I am just so grateful for all the volunteers who have helped put this together for the talented people who have given their time. We we've got this awesome waterfall-looking thing in the sanctuary right now. It's uh with trees. It is just so cool. We're gonna leave it up for Sunday. It's just it's so cool. The kids are having a great time, they're learning about Jesus, they're getting to know one another, and uh, it has just been a week of I wanted to set up and do to the podcast in the sanctuary with the sound of the kids in the background, but I thought that it might just be a little bit too much. And so I'm in my office, and and once you know what the lawnmowers are here, and they're mowing right outside my office. Well, it would have been better just to have the sound of the kids singing in the background, but it's been a great week, and I'm just so grateful for all the volunteers and for all the kids who have uh who are here and and learning about Jesus is just wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

That is great. So we get the lawn mowers instead of the kids. Okay, but we know they're there. That that's important.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

That's right. The kids are here and they're learning and they're teaching, and it they all got matching t-shirts. It's it's so fun. And yours is next week. BBS is next week in Cambridge, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah, we begin next Monday morning. It's about it's almost 30 kids bigger this year. In fact, it is 30 kids bigger. I think we're doing 92 or three or something like that this year, which is huge for us. And so it'll be a great, energetic, exciting time. And I heard the story of this mom who used to discover who where all the BBSs were in town, and all summer, that was what she did. Sent her kids to every single BBS in town. That's awesome. That was kind of a cool idea, actually.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

So and then tomorrow I'm driving up to Minnesota. I'm doing a wedding this weekend in the town of I'm sorry, not Minnesota, Oklahoma. What am I doing? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

In Luther, Oklahoma. Have you ever heard of Luther, Oklahoma, Andy?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

No, there must be some connection to uh Luther somehow or another. Is it a Lutheran town or what's the deal?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

I don't know. Do we think there's a Lutheran church in Lutheran, Oklahoma Luther, Oklahoma? It's a small town, so I'm gonna be looking for the Lutheran church in Luther, Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Wouldn't that be cool? They could have a Luther Lutheran church.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

That would be awesome. I will be on the lookout and I'll let you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Good. I'm looking forward

Every Pastor Needs to Be a Mission Developer (Church Planter)

SPEAKER_01 4:15

to it.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

But Andy, we just celebrated our 15th anniversary, which is a lot of fun. We had uh great food, as you know. Our men's group made incredible brisket. We had great, great food. Our bishop was here, we brought in new members. It was a great celebration. Great. Wow, but it got me thinking, Andy, and I wonder if if you if you understand this. The going back to my mindset, uh we celebrated our 15th anniversary, but uh we really started 16 years ago. It took us so we celebrated the anniversary of our organization, not the day we got started. The difference between um the mindset of a mission developer and the mindset of a pastor who is called to an existing congregation. I was thinking about this. The mindset, if you're called to an existing congregation, the people already go to church there and they're like, Yeah, that's the pastor of the church I go to. We, you know, we called this guy or this gal to be our pastor, and I'm not sure if I like him or not, but that's the pastor of the church I go to. Whereas when you start your own congregation, when you when you're a mission developer, basically everyone who joins the church is saying, All right, I'll give you a chance to be my pastor, right? As opposed to you are already the pastor, I already go to this church and you're our pastor. And and it's a different mindset, and it's it's kind of terrifying and humbling all, but it's because every single new member that joins over the course of the time that you are there says, Yeah, I'm I'll I'll I will I'll give you a chance to be my pastor. Did you ever experience anything like that as a mission developer?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Absolutely, Nick. You're naming something. I used to think that every pastor should be required to be a mission developer because it totally changes your outlook on ministry, how you go about ministry, what ministry is about, because every mission developer has to be in it for the right reasons, experiences sacrifice from the outset, and really has to focus on mission. Who we are, who are we? Who are we trying to reach? Why are we trying to reach them? What are we about? And a lot of pastors just get into churches, be honest, you know, well, I'm just here to be and do whatever it is they want me to do. That is not a calling, that is maintenance. And it is so true, too, the the loyalty and pride's a wrong word, but ownership and and the excitement about a brand new church, you cannot match it anywhere. And, you know, and Nick also wanted to lift up how hard it is to do that. You know, the stat I heard about a decade ago from somebody was that 90% of the ELCA mission developments don't make it past year five. And so that's a big deal that uh you've got going on there. And you're, you know, you're outside of the norm, which is great, and you're succeeding where other people aren't. And that's a tribute both to you and your people, but especially your calling for a mission. And one of the things, when I was a mission developer and I was there, uh I left about the five-year mark. And I said, when I go to a new parish, I am new church, I am never gonna lose that mission developer spirit. It's really hard to keep it up. But one of the things we've done here is taken the operating system I had there, and we plugged it in thanks to the senior pastor at the time who was totally bought into mission and vision as well. And and we've been reaching people, new people ever since. And it's it's really exciting. In fact, just this past week, I got email, it was sent to another staff member who shared it with me from someone just they weren't in church, they weren't going anywhere else, and they just absolutely poured on how much they love our church and how welcoming they've felt and how helpful it's been to their family. And boy, I tell you, Nick, that sort of thing just makes it possible, makes it worth doing.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Amen. Amen. Yeah, and then and so uh the the reason we made a big deal of our 15th anniversary is because as I've said and I keep saying, 15th anniversaries are rare today in the ELCA. And so, but I'm my sabbatical starts in like four days, and I'm so excited. And one of the things I'm going to do is I'm coming to Minnesota, I'm gonna spend some time with you to learn your operating system so that our 25th anniversary is an even bigger celebration than our 15th anniversary, because we have to take this to the next level, and so I'm coming to learn from you, Andy, and can't wait to be up in Minnesota with maybe a sweatshirt on in the middle of summer and and learning about how what we can do better.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

That, Nick, would be absolutely awesome, man. Can't wait for you guys to arrive. That will be great. And a sweatshirt in the summer. That is that's kind of that's kind of the the norm here. I did have a sweatshirt on. I don't know if we're technically in summer, but around here in Minnesota, June is summer. I did have a sweatshirt on yesterday. So I was getting my steps in. It was cold, I think. Yeah, I woke up and it was 53, Nick. So I guess I'm not gonna complain.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

I think it's supposed to be 98 here today. So that's right.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

I think our high is like 71. So, you know, it's not bad.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Can't wait to get there. You gotta can't wait to

Are You Ready to Read Revelation?

SPEAKER_00 9:08

get there, Andy. We're almost done with Revelation. We are almost done with Revelation. We are we've got like five chapters to go after this one. So Revelation chapter 17. Are you ready to do this? Are you ready to get through Revelation?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, we're talking 17 today, Revelation 17. It's about downfall and corruption and the illusion of power and corrupt religious and political and economic systems. This is gonna be great, Nick. I'm glad those things don't exist anymore, but uh, we'll talk about what they used to look like.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

What did they look like 2,000

The Great Prostitute?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

years ago? All right. Uh, verse one come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute who sits by many waters. The great prostitute. Andy, who or what do you think the great prostitute represents? Is non-describing a specific historical city, a corrupt religious system, worldly culture, or something bigger than any one institution. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

So here's my first thought, Nick. I get got this from another preacher named Mark Clark, who's a Canadian preacher. And he said, we we use these words in scripture that sort of sanitize and kind of, you know, just kind of hide the reality there. We use language that doesn't capture, you know, people's attention. He said, Why do we call them prostitutes? Which is kind of this clean descriptive phrase. He goes, if we really wanted to capture people's attention, we'd call them hookers. He said, Why don't you say, why don't you get up and preach? I'd say, yeah, this was Mark Clark's idea, preaching on Revelation or whatever it is, or you know, on some of the characters in scripture and say, you know, there were these three hookers who that is struck me, is pretty interesting. I don't know that that would work in my culture, but you can you can surely guess that it would get some attention. People would tune in very quickly. And whether you use prostitute or hooker, whatever it is, the the answer to the question is it's any system that draws people away from Christ and gives them security in something else. And, you know, in this passage, if you put it in context, they're probably talking about Rome, you know, and Babylon today and then is a symbol for, you know, anything that competes with God's rule. And I guess what it's teaching us is don't give your heart to anything if it's going to take the place of Christ. And in Lutheran theology, we know that those things are tugging at us all the time. And and daily Luther talked about daily repentance, daily, I think the old phrase was regeneration. Daily confession might be another way of putting it. Daily repentance is actually what it is. Nick, what are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, well, I think I think you said the one word that really struck for me was security. That I think certainly John was talking about the Roman Empire at the time he was writing it. And so this is about Rome, but it's also about more than Rome. It's about the things that we struggle with today. Because the Roman Empire it demanded loyalty, and if you were loyal, it offered security and it offered prosperity, so long as you were loyal to the Empire. And so I think it's anything that demands loyalty, and for your loyalty, you are rewarded with prosperity and security instead of trusting in Jesus for you know to give us this day our daily bread and to provide security, eternal security. And so, you know, we are loyal to Jesus above all things. But if there's anything that demands our loyalty above Jesus and promises prosperity and security apart from Jesus, then I think that is the great prostitute that they're, you know, whatever it is that does that in life is the great prostitute in today's day and age. And so what where we the scary part is where we can find that is in like false Christianity or false religion. You know, the beast is in open opposition to God in Revelation, but this great prostitute, I think, uh is more dangerous because there is a sense in that she looks a little bit religious. And so it's demanding your loyalty to something that looks religious but isn't actually religious, demanding loyalty and and and and offering prosperity and security. And I would say that if Luther would if Luther were here today, I think here's what he would say. The greatest danger that we face today is not atheism, but it's religion that forgets the gospel. It's religion that forgets the good news of Jesus, it's religion that demands loyalty, promises prosperity and security, but does it without Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are so many things in the church that are method, not mission, that, you know, we worship or protect. And, you know, there's the passage in the New Testament, I forget exactly the exact words for it, but you know, you've sacrificed your children on the altar of, you know, religion, your rules and your methods is, you know, kind of the idea there. And I think that is so true of the church today. I mean, I'm surrounded. It's sad. I want to see all these Lutheran churches around me thrive. And years ago, I remember when I was in Chicago, I'd hear all these Lutheran churches talk about, you know, evangelism or, you know, other means and methods to reach people with the gospel. And they say, oh, that's not who we are. We don't need that, we don't do that. And today so many of those churches have closed. I mean, that's another reason that your church, you know, celebrating 15 years is such a big deal, is in order to make it 15 years, in order to thrive, you need to constantly be reaching new people. Every the average church loses eight to thirteen percent of their people every year, just from like death and moving and inactivity and people transferring out or changing or whatever it might be. You need to you need to reach eight to thirteen percent of your population, your people just to stay even. So Yeah, I mean, uh it's it's easy to lose a hard permission. It's all over. Well, we should move on

AGLC 15th Anniversary

SPEAKER_01 15:08

to the phone.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Well, let me let me add you're absolutely right. I just have to share this with you. So we signed a new charter at our 15-year anniversary, recommitting ourselves to the work of the kingdom, and I pulled down the charter from 15 years ago that was signed. 112 people signed it back 15 years ago. Of the 112, how many do you think have left?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Oh, wow. Sixty?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Exactly sixty.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Oh I did not know that. A word of knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Did you listen to my sermon? You you listened to my sermon.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

I did not. I should have. I would have liked to, but I did not.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

But that's more than half. More than I mean, it's not that they've left, but some you know they've moved away. Some have taken their place among the saints in glory. But you're absolutely right. Over the course of 15 years, half of the people who started the church are gone. More than half are gone. And so you have to constantly be looking for the you know, the the next group who are going to re you know, fill the pews. And and we have to always be thinking that way. And I think about how many people have moved away just in 15 years and and uh the challenge it is to uh continually you know bring in new people because they're the you never reach a point where you're done. You never reach a point where you've done good enough.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And also, Nick, a lot of times people say, well, we've always done that, we'll always get new people. And the truth is, doing that today is different than it used to be. I mean, the vast majority of people are not in a church, vast majority of people do not go to church on Sunday. Unchurch people going to church is not even on their radar. And, you know, the world needs to be reached. How are we going to reach the world is the most important question. And the truth is, churches do a lot of things that just scare people off. And especially older established churches are good at having people come in and then making sure that they know that's not how we do things.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

And and I could I could go on with us. Andy, are you?

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Are you baking cookies over there? I am not.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

That was my cell phone dinging. I did not turn off my ringer. That was not the oven.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

So although one of the you want to take this opportunity to turn off your ringer just in case?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Just in case someone else is gonna contact me.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

But you are an important person.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Let's see, I got a couple of texts there.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

The uh Sandy trying to talk and read at the same time, folks. Read the text.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Nick, by the way, on the video here on the screen, your image has frozen. So I've been looking at the same image of a frozen Nick from the from the very beginning of this podcast. But um, I'm just sitting very still.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I'm just sitting very still. Sitting still.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

So

Old Fashioned School

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Pete has been going to something, my son Pete, who had just finished seventh grade, has been going to something called the West Riverside School. It's we call it old-fashioned school. And it's this old, old, old one-room schoolhouse that has been around here forever. And during the summer, they take about a month and they open it up to kids and they actually teach classes in there. And everyone brings lunches with old ingredients, no plastic bags, you know, homemade lunches, and they wear the old clothes and they learn using chalkboard and they go outside and they play the old games. It is like the coolest thing ever. And this is first year he wouldn't let us take his picture, but from previous years we have it. But it's a really cool thing. So we have been baking, is my point, Nick, but that was not. We baked bread, and we're using homemade bread for his sandwiches, which is kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Can I just share a little story about when uh COVID hit and we all went to Zoom meetings, especially like you know, ELCA council meeting? And uh I had this goal, like I would sit in this meeting and I would sit as still as possible for as long as possible to see if I could ever get anyone to think that I'd frozen. That's great. So some of these are so boring. I just like, okay, I'm gonna sit here as still as possible. Then I wanted some Nick, are you frozen? And I would say, no, I'm just sitting as still as possible.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

That is a great yeah. There were Zoom games. There was this thing called Zoom Bingo where if someone says or does something, you could check it off.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

So yeah, I mean, yeah, but Nick, you know, your time on the ELCA Church Council, I mean, things were changed for the better. We are better because of it. We are a brand new church because of what you accomplished through it. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Well, you have a Roth IRA option now, so that's that's right. We do. So good job, Nick. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Awesome. All right, we should keep moving. Verse two with her, the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabits of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. Nick, this is just such rich stuff. I mean, we should be preaching on this. People will tune in.

What can intoxicate modern people spiritually?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

What are the modern things that can intoxicate people spiritually, Nick? Why are power and wealth and influence so often linked together in scripture? What's the deal there?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I think we're all searching for significance in life, and and and so we're intoxicated by the search for significance, and that includes success and status and politics, political victories. It includes being right, it includes social media approval, getting as many, you know, it's it's the search for dopamine, right? All those things in life make us feel good about ourselves. That's right. But I I think that that people used to ask, what must I do to be saved? But today people are asking, what must I do to matter? Um and I think the uh the answer often is success instead of anything faith-based or anything about Jesus. And so because success equals power, and power makes us feel good. Power makes us feel like God. And so uh but the dangerous is they create power creates the illusion that we don't need God because we are in control. We're in control of our life, we're in control of our destiny, and we don't need God. So to me, the the temptation isn't money, it's believing that money and power can do only what God can do, which is make us secure and make us immortal, live forever. And so I think that's the intoxication that we struggle with uh and the spiritual intoxication. And and and I even think that there's theology that's written to speak to that kind of spiritual intoxication, to allow space for that spiritual intoxication as opposed to relying fully and completely on Jesus. What are your thoughts, Andy?

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah, I think you're right. And what bugs me a little bit is that stuff even happens in the church, you know, you know, where people, it's just this kind of this comparison thing. It's how much do I matter? We get intoxicated by the various pieces of, you know, even in ministry. I mean, one thing that's always struck me as interesting is that churches that are smaller than our church, especially significantly smaller churches, often feel like when I'm talking with the pastors, they're trying to make the case, well, we matter too. You know, well, great, you're the size you are, great. Grow, reach new people. But I mean, nobody's judging you for the size that you are. And uh sometimes, not as often, but sometimes when I talk to pastors who are, you know, have churches larger than ours, it's kind of mildly denigrating. It's like, well, good job. That's okay. You're doing good work. And it's it's kind of like this this sympathy piece. But you know, the exception is I've talked to some pastors, especially of some of these very large churches, who just, man, if you're in ministry, they have, they're just excited about that. And whatever size or kind of church you are, they're excited that you're naming Jesus and you're doing ministry in the kingdom. And it's it's not about all of these metrics that we bring about success or who matters or who's, you know, cutting edge enough, or all the rest of these things we tend to measure ourselves by. It's just excitement for the kingdom. And what really has come to annoy me, I mean, we're larger than the churches around us, and there are a lot of churches more metro that are larger than we are. Kind of bugs me when it becomes this, you know, comparison game. And it's like, well, we would, we'd be big too if we had all the advantages that you do. And it's like, no, man, it's not about that. Who are you reaching? And what are you about? Every church matters, and the gospel, you know, in this text is is intentionally calling us back, you know, as an individual, as a church, as a as Christ followers, to finding our identity and security in Christ, our identity in Christ. What does that look like? And again, as Lutherans, we know that that's never going to be pure, but it's always calling us back. The gospel is always an invitation calling us back to Christ. Nick?

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah, and one thing I would add to that, uh, because I've heard that too. You know, it's all the advantage you have. Well, the advantages we have are because of our strategic vision that we've, you know, we've we've put people in positions so that we could have an advantage in this, you know, area of ministry. You know, it's it's it's something we've worked on. Yeah, I've heard that, you know, you hear the saying it takes 15 years of work to become an overnight sensation. Well, yeah, you know, not to say we're an overnight sensation, but we're good at certain things because we've invested in those things. And and so any advantage we have in a certain area, you know, is because we've done a lot of work to make to be better at that. I I I mean, I I I I've I've heard that from the very beginning, and it's just something that always kind of annoys me.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

But you know, from day one, I've had a heart for evangelism, day one of like my time in ministry, and and I've gone to all the stuff and read all the books and tried so many of the approaches and tried to learn and really get a heart for it. One of my spiritual gifts is that we need to reach new people. And it's, you know, it's ironic in a way because I'm an introvert, you know, on the Myers Briggs, but it's like, how are we going to be about new people? And a lot of churches, it's like, well, if they, you know, we're here if they want us. So you're exactly right. It's strategic thinking. Do people matter to God? And if people, everyone matters to God, therefore they need to matter to the church. And that's what you learn as a mission developer. And I don't know if it's chicken before the egg, if those are the sorts of people that get into mission development, or if mission development teaches that or, you know, kind of undergirds that mindset. I think it's probably both. But I talk to a lot of people, and man, they're fussing about their church. Oh, you know, people don't go or they don't give or they don't do whatever. Hey, man, that's on you. And you need to be casting vision and you need to make it worth it for people to give, and you need to show them where we're going, and you need to show them why it matters. So that's the advantage of mission, having a heart for mission, I think.

Where to Draw the Line: Using Wealth and Serving Wealth

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Nick.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yeah. Well, Andy, we're 26 minutes in. What do you say we get to verse four?

unknown 25:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

All right. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Verse four, the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet and was glittering with gold, jewels, and pearls. So, Andy, what is the difference between enjoying God's blessing and becoming spiritually compromised by wealth? Where do Christians draw that line?

SPEAKER_01 26:03

That that's a hard question because culturally people tend to envy is strongly at work. Envy and resentment over resentment and envy are alive and well in the culture. And we define rich as anyone who has a little bit more than we do. And we tend to assign all of this value to wealth if we if only I had a little more. And we tend to denigrate people who have more. And they should therefore, because they have more, do X, Y, or Z. It's it's really interesting. And Bible is an anti-wealth. I mean, you know, what's the story about the parable where they buried the treasure? And who gets rewarded? The one who invested it and did something with it. So, you know, not only are gifts meant to be enjoyed, but wealth is a tool to be used for the kingdom. And, you know, it's not to be, I mean, so often where the mind goes is envy and resentment and and other sins, the seven deadly sins, perhaps. And really in a way that, you know, if you're envying someone or resenting them because they, in your perception at least, have more materially than you or something else, you know, you're also not honoring that person. And so the one of the things we want to just ask ourselves is does this gift, you know, lead me to thank God or is it replacing God? And again, we're called to be stewards, not servants of money. But, you know, in my ministry here, people who are materially blessed because they've been gifted in certain areas and put those skills to work have made all the difference in making the church work. And a biblical example of that is Lydia, who is not only an example of, you know, women in ministry, women leading churches, but also an example of someone in the marketplace who had leadership ability and because of that, probably had wealth. Uh, she was a seller of fine cloth, I think purple cloth. She was able to, you know, make a difference for the church in a huge way. Nick?

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah. The Bible never says money is money itself is evil. So many of the Bible characters were wealthy. Abraham was wealthy. It is like his, I mean, he had his own army. Abraham was a Job was wealthy and Lydia. Lydia was wealthy. But I think I think when it when we get to the point where we need to draw the line, I think we go to Luther's explanation of the first commandment. He says, Whatever you fear, love, and trust above all things is your God. And so the question is, if losing your wealth would change or destroy your identity, then it's more than just a blessing or a gift in your life. It becomes your God. And so, you know, it if you have wealth, the question, what happens when my wealth is threatened? What haph is it going to change who you who how you feel about yourself? Or, you know, do you do you find your identity is in Christ first and foremost and you have wealth because you know, I think God gives us all gifts and we're all good at different things, and some things the world values more than other things. And so that you know, you we get wealth because the world values doctors, you know, more than it does teachers. It's just that that's when it comes to finance, that's just the way the you know, and so if it were to all go away though, do you still find your identity in being a child of God? And because that's where your trust is, that's where your hope is. And so, well, we can do wonderful things with wealth. You were talking about, Andy, with Lydia, to shape the church, to help make the church live into the the vision that the Spirit is calling us into. So wealth can be uh an incredible tool for ministry, and yet it can also be, you know, the love of money is the is the root of all kinds of evil. And so if it becomes the one thing above everything else, then then I think we've crossed the line and we become spiritually compromised by it. But uh otherwise, I think, you know, take what you've been given and do as much as you can with it.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Amen. Verse six, I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of witnesses to Jesus. So pretty graphic verses here.

How Has Persecution Strengthened the Church?

SPEAKER_01 30:15

So question Nick, why is persecution often strengthened the church rather than destroyed it?

SPEAKER_00 30:21

So I I'm gonna use language like you language that I'm kind of uncomfortable with, but I think it it needs to be said. I think when when times are difficult, specifically for the church, like when persecution is real, I think it kind of separates the uh the consumers from the disciples, from those who are part of the the community of God because their faith has called them to it and because they can't imagine doing anything else with their lives, from those who are there because it seems like the thing to do. But if it ever, if there ever becomes a challenge, be the faith presents a challenge in life, then it's something that could easily be given up. And so I think there's something about i is your faith core to who you are, or is it something that is just part of you know a life that uh just one one one other thing in the life in your life, and so you could just give it up and you can go and and and and live life without faith, and and you know, nothing much is going to change. So I've once heard I've I've heard it said that persecution itself doesn't create faith, but it reveals faith. And so you know, following Jesus is supposed to cost us everything. It's supposed to cost us everything in life, and you know, it's pick up your cross and follow me and and set aside all of the other things that that you hold dear, not to say that you know you can't keep those things and be a Christian, but that our faith is the foundation of our life and the most important thing. And so as we gr go through life uh faithfully, sometimes, you know, sometimes faith is is easy, sometimes being part of a church is an easy thing, and sometimes it's a challenge, but I think the challenge, those challenging times, it seems though the the church is strengthened because the the the genuine faithful disciples are are dedicated to the work of the kingdom and they had nothing is ever going to stop them. And I think that's an important part of living faithfully today, recognizing there is nothing that can stop me from living faithfully. Andy, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Absolutely, Nick. You know, the classic example is China for the Lutheran Church. The Lutheran missionaries were all kicked out and left and thought, wow, all our work for nothing. And they come back, and what has happened to Christianity in China, it has organically exploded. In fact, there's some people that say Christianity might be the majority religion in China. I don't quite know the stats on that or how that's determined, but it's it's pretty amazing. But I mean, clearly, you know, you were pointing this out, persecution forces believers to depend on Christ instead of culture. And in many ways, that's probably why our witness in many ways is weak. And stronger faith, greater unity, clearer witness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

We so last year we did a mission trip to Tanzania. Did you know there's more Lutherans in Tanzania than there is in the United States?

unknown 33:11

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

And it's like we're doing a mission trip there, and it's like there's more Lutherans here than there is in the United States, and it's such a smaller country.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Because life is hard there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

And faith is, you know, when life is hard, faith means more.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, what's so interesting is when it comes to missions, so often we're all worried about are they singing the right hymns, Nick? Are they doing worship right? Are they doing church right? Are they and and I've just dealt with that in my whole ministry because I've tended to be in ministries that are outside the norm, and there's always somebody critiquing somebody else for doing it wrong. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah, let's uh go to verse 14. So it says they will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful. Called and chosen and faithful. So, Andy, what is the difference between being called, chosen, and faithful? And which of those three descriptions do Christians struggle with the most today?

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Well, Nick, you're all three, so you know the answer to this, right? Is that so are you, Andy? Okay. And yeah, I'm not sure. The the other piece is that what experiencing is that we read these verses is there are so many wonderful, you know, hymns, praise songs that are that use this language. And and there's a valuable piece to reading the scripture and diving into the scripture, you know, that is used for so many of the worship songs that people absolutely love. But I mean, here's one answer. I mean, okay, it's the difference between being called, chosen, and faithful. And we could do a whole podcast on what does it mean to be faithful? But I mean, here's the big idea: God is calling people through the gospel. The gospel calls you. The Holy Spirit at work through the gospel is calling you. Believers are chosen by the grace of God, not by their works. We, you know, are saved by the grace of God which comes through faith alone, not our own works or merit. Faithfulness is the response to trusting Christ each day, and the Holy Spirit, again, makes that possible. And many Christians struggle most with faithfulness because the distractions and temptations of everyday life constantly compete for our attention. I mean, the competition of the church is not other churches. Competition of the church is any and every single thing that will draw people away from participating in the life of the community of faith. Nick?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah. So I think the first two called and chosen are the easier ones because they're done by God, right? So they're entirely God's work. To be called and to be chosen is entirely God's work. And so that's not hard. The hard part is being faithful, and that's kind of the theme we've been talking about all day today, is about staying faithful. And and what's important is that you don't become chosen because you're faithful, you become faithful because you've been chosen, right? So it's the the the the the the chosenness comes first, and then the faith comes. And so what's

Being Faithful in a Distracting World

SPEAKER_00 36:16

hardest today? Well, it's being faithful. Uh it's being faithful today because there is so much distraction in the world today, and it is so hard to to maintain our the the faithful life that God has called us to because there's so many other things that we can focus our lives on. You know, one of the things that I've been recognizing lately is it once you get started doing something, like checking your phone or what you know, it's just really hard to stop. And so there's so much distraction in the world, and there's so much distraction that it's hard to stop. It's hard to set down your phone, it's hard to it's hard to stop when you're watching TV show after T what do they call that, where you're just watching the same show and you're just what what when you're watching Netflix or whatever. It's just hard to stop. It's hard, it's hard to hit the stop button, right? Because it just keeps playing. And and it's the distraction. So the the devil doesn't always need to make us bad. Some I've heard it said he doesn't need to make us bad, he just needs to keep us busy. If we're busy with all the other things going on in life, then we can set aside our faith and we can focus on all the things in life that keep us busy. And so, yeah. So faithfulness is the hard one.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Nick, what are what are the numbers on how often a personal phone is? Binge watching phone. Binge watching, that's what I was. Binge watching. Okay. Yeah. Nick, if if I knew how to access our Netflix account, I might binge watch something. So maybe it's good that I don't know how to access Netflix. God bless you, Pastor Andy.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Uh, how how often do we pick up our phone? Yeah is that what you're asking?

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

I don't know, but it's it's not good.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

So the I got the I got the lawnmowers right outside my window right now. I gotta tell you, talking about distraction, it is like, come on, guys. And today's the day they choose to to trim the bushes right outside my window, and now the blowers walking by, and it's like, talk about distraction.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Like, uh I think that the podcasting tech will take that out. But just a couple more thoughts on this. I mean, the phone is the big distraction, the phone is the big thing. I mean, I I've been bringing my phone into worship with me at the early service in part because I use the camera for special stuff so that I can record that. No one's ever taken pictures. And but the other reason is sometimes we get emergency messages from the other room, which are often running worship concurrently. And and uh, we can hear that. That's great. That's awesome. That is great. By the way, have you seen these, speaking of tech and phones and social media and distractions, have you seen these reels about these lawn mowing companies that see lawns that are way, way, way out of control and they just go for no money at all and and clean up these people's lawns. It's really kind of cool. Loving your neighbor, taking care of it. I think they do it because they get really high viewership and probably make money on the ads. But it sounds just like what is in the background of this video uh of this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

So just a guy out there earning a living, you know. I I respect him for doing it, but man.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

That is great.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Of course it has to be during the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

That's that is right.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

So Especially when we're talking about distraction.

Gods Word for the Prostitute

SPEAKER_01 39:28

All right. So, Nick, refocus us. Where are we at?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Uh we're on verses uh 16 and 17, Andy.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Okay, so should I go ahead and read them then?

unknown 39:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Are we ready to go there? Let's go.

unknown 39:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will that is great to sound in the background. They will make her desolate and naked, they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire. I mean, this is amazing. This is very graphic. For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by agreeing to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God will be fulfilled. I mean, this is so, this is direct, this is graphic, this is language that is powerful, this is stuff that, I mean, too bad we don't preach like this. I mean, this is there is there is belief, there is uh conviction behind

Evil Aliances Undone by Sin

SPEAKER_01 40:27

these words. So, Nick, you know, one of the themes throughout history is that evil alliances eventually collapse and turn on each other. Do you think that evil is ultimately self-destructive?

SPEAKER_00 40:38

I I do, I do. And uh, you know, Andy, one of the reasons you we don't preach on revelation is because we don't read it very often, we don't study it very often, right? Because it's one of those books in the Bible where we're just like, uh, someday I'll become an expert on revelation, but not today, because I've got other things to worry about today. Uh but yes, evil alliances eventually collapse and turn on each other. Why? Because evil can cooperate for a season, but selfishness always reveals itself, right? Evil cannot create, it can only corrupt. And so God creates, evil distorts, and so eventually it all falls apart because eventually, you know, if if two evil sides are working together, someone's gonna uh selfishness is gonna reveal itself, and and evil doesn't compromise, right? Evil doesn't compromise, evil doesn't work well together with anybody, right? That's the sinfulness of of putting oneself first. Putting oneself first, and above all things, there's you can't compromise, and so it it's incompatible. And so you can't you can't have a foundation and you can't build a relationship on a foundation that is built on selfishness and lies. It just doesn't work, you know. And so lies eventually consume themselves and and these you know evil alliances eventually collapse, but because evil just two two evil organizations that come together won't stay together very long because it it just doesn't work. So what do you think, Andy?

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Nick, I think the summary answer to this is sin contains the seeds of its own destruction. Sin contains the seeds of its own destruction. You know, uh they alliances collapse just because the the things that shaped them will destroy them. And all evil is ultimately self-destructive. And I think in people's lives, the primary example of that is bitterness. You know, I I preached about this a little bit last Sunday. I mean, I will be talking to people who will bring up experiences 30, 40 years ago they're still bitter about. It could be an institution, it could be a person, it could be a word that someone said. You know, why is it sometimes we still play reels in our head? You know, we rewind the cassette, Nick, and play it over again from like some something somebody said in college or high school or at one of our first jobs or something. And we can't escape. Or, you know, we can escape, but we don't allow ourselves to escape. We we fixate on those things. And, you know, it could be bitterness about something in your life right now. And it is so interesting. And I mean, overcoming something like bitterness is not for the other person, it's for us that we might be free from that because it can destroy us from within, Nick.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

And we'll never know peace.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Yeah, that's the well when we live with bitterness and you know, it's just it's hard to be at peace. And and peace is a gift that God wants to give you, plain and simple. And you know, it's but if we hold on to the angers and hurts and all those things, uh it's hard to yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

And so often we choose those things, and over time, what I preached about in the message is that becomes our identity. We choose to make our identity not on Christ or something else, but you know, based on this bitterness about how someone did or is currently doing, you know, something wrong to us. We view our ourselves as the victim, victimhood becomes our identity and it undermines everything else. And people can go a lifetime that way. And, you know, we talk about spiritual maturity. And often I'll be in conversations, and I can tell you, just based on their past history, how they're going to respond to whatever it is. And it's what what is really sad is that so many people cannot change their behavior. And people don't change their behavior until the pain becomes too great. And we're people,

Nick: Where to Grow spiritually

SPEAKER_01 44:31

one of the things I often repeat in church is that you've never looked into the eyes of someone who didn't need to grow spiritually. Where is it that you personally need to grow spiritually? I can guarantee you it's something. And during church I'll ask people, you know, if you're here today and you don't need to grow spiritually, I mean stand up so that we can look at you. And of course, no one ever stands up. There was one occasion where I don't think they fully understood the question and somebody stood up and I was kind of entertaining actually.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

But Nick Yeah yeah I I I there's never been a person that doesn't need to grow spiritually. You just I I've never heard you say that before and I just was thinking about you know going through the Rolodex in my mind. Is there anybody who I ever thought that was kind of a finished product and and no and and so you got me thinking of you know going down some like tangents in my mind about like what that means for what's next and and stuff. So you you caught me there. You caught me thinking but uh yeah good stuff.

Lutheran Reading of Romans 17: The Seven Hills

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Andy do we want to try we have a bonus question. All right let's do you want to hit the bonus question? Absolutely it says the seven heads are seven hills on which the women woman sits so seven seven heads and seven hills that the woman is sitting at so many people connect the seven hills to Rome because there's seven hills. Do you think Romans 17 is primarily about first century Rome or a future world system or a recurring pattern that appears throughout history whenever political, economic and spiritual corruption come together. What do you think, Andy?

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Just a couple of thoughts on this the first one is that we talked about audiences for Revelation in previous con in previous sessions. And one of the things we don't want to forget is that Revelation was written to a particular audience in a particular place and time for which many of the things that are spoken would have been clear to them, where to us they're a mystery and we're trying to figure out what are they saying. That's one of the reasons is you pointed out Nick that we study Revelation and I think that's really an important one. So but a Lutheran reading of this I think you know makes room for all three you know first century Rome, future world system or a recurring pattern that, you know, throughout history when political economic and spiritual corruption come together and very often they do, I think that's a problem with state churches is that that sort of corruption be it political or economic always enters in and I think that's also why so many of the state churches are basically dead. No one goes, no one's bought in no one's there's no fire. It's not a movement. It's become an institution and when it's run and taken over by the state I mean that just cements the deal. And if you want to get into the audience a little bit I think John's original audience would have recognized Rome, but the symbolism goes beyond one empire and this is not ever restricted to Rome. You know a lot of things that Rome did were really good actually you know but you know in this particular case the persecution of the church was not not one of them.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Nick Yeah I think I think we do need to say that in the original audience would not have needed a decoder ring like we need, right? That to try and figure out what John is talking about. But I so I so clearly the first century readers would have known exactly what they were talking what he was talking about with Rome. But I think that the Lutheran answer is that it's both and right and so it's about Rome but it's also about a pattern that repeats itself repeats itself over the course of history. Whenever political, economic and religious power combine to demand ultimate loyalty you know that's that's kind of what Paul sorry what John is writing about. And so you know there's it can be Rome, it can be future empires recurring patterns. The point is reveal the point of revelation remains the same Christians should spend a lot less time debating who Babylon is Revelation spends a lot more time reminding us that Babylon loses. Don't worry about who Babylon is just know that Babylon loses and keep the focus where Luther would want us to keep it which is not on identifying the villain but on trusting Jesus. Know Jesus be faithful to Jesus study Jesus learn what it means to follow Jesus and be as faithful as you can to Jesus and all everything else will take care of itself. Everything else will take care of itself and I think that's an important part of what Revelation is trying to teach us and and what it teaches us today.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Yeah helping us who is Jesus to you and what does it mean to be a follower of Jesus and and what are the things that challenge that and and in this case corrupt that and again you know the primary message not to identify Babylon but to remind us to be faithful to Jesus who has already secured the victory. So in the end again Revelation is a book of hope. So yeah am I still frozen Andy you Nick are frozen on my screen still I am looking at a a frozen Nick

The Frozen Chosen

SPEAKER_01 49:27

you are the frozen chosen Nick to tie into earlier what we were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

I thought that's the you got to be in Minnesota to be the frozen chosen but uh I guess in Texas today. So funny the lawn mowing just stopped so that means the podcast but but now the the pest people are here ringing the doorbell and apparently I'm the only one in the office today so I got to go put the pest people in.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

So that is the job of the senior pastor Nick to answer the door for the pest people.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

I gotta say though when there's challenges it means that what we did today was worth doing because the the the devil was trying to get in the way Andy with the lawn mowing and the pest and the frozenness and all the other things but we did we we finished the podcast anyway.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Amen you know it's going to be good when the devil gets into the technology Nick that's what one of my uh worship leaders in Chicago used to say you know things are going good. The devil wants to mess with it. He wants to undermine it. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

I always wonder when when everything's working well I'm like my sermon must not be that good today. That's great. All right Andy good talking to you Revelation 17. We'll see y'all soon.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

See you soon. Thanks Nick are listening to the Grace Bides podcast with Nick and Andy thanks for being with us