Revelation 16 - Bowls of Wrath?

Is Revelation Predicting the End of the World…or Revealing the Truth About Human Nature?

In our newest episode of the Grace Abides Podcast, Nick & Andy tackle one of the most intense and controversial chapters in the entire Bible: Revelation 16.

+ First, baptism in the lake? Who should be baptized?

+ What are the seven bowls of wrath?

+ Is Armageddon a literal battle, OR a symbol of humanity’s endless trust in power and violence?

+ Why does Revelation describe darkness, plagues, earthquakes, and the fall of Babylon?

+ What did Jesus mean when He cried out, “It is finished,” compared to Revelation’s final declaration: “It is done”?

Most importantly, we ask: What is Revelation actually trying to reveal about God, evil, humanity, and hope?

Whether you’ve studied Revelation for years or have always found it confusing, this conversation will challenge the way you think about the Bible’s most mysterious book.

Listen now to Revelation 16 on the Grace Abides Podcast.

Regarding baptism, here is a link to Luther's writing, "Concerning Rebaptism," referenced in the podcast about who should be baptized, and whether people should you be rebaptized.

Transcript

Grace Abides

SPEAKER_03 0:11

If we were to put it in a single sentence, Nick, for me it's this that external force cannot cure spiritual brokenness and sin.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's Word one chapter at a time. Happy Wednesday morning, everyone. Andy,

We can baptize in the lake?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

how are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Nick, I am doing really well. How are things in South Lake?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Things are great here, but I have to ask you, I saw some pictures of you in a lake this past weekend. What were you like, John the Baptist? You were baptizing people. First off, how cold was the water? And uh tell me about this baptizing people in the lake.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

I I thought it was gonna be super cold, but the you know, outside temperature wasn't that warm, so the lake didn't actually feel that cool. It had been also hot for weeks, it had warmed up. Yeah, baptism in the lake was really fun. We started doing these a couple summers ago when someone said, Hey, I I'd like to be baptized. I've never been baptized, and can I be baptized at Camp Wapo? And I said, Yeah. And so we took them out in the lake and dunked them. It was awesome. And then last year we had a couple more middle and high school kids who wanted to be baptized. And hey, can we get baptized in the lake? And I said, Well, absolutely you can. So we took them out to a different lake and dunked them. And then this one was kind of neat. There's a couple of our elementary school kids, and their family lives on a lake and they wanted to be baptized in the lake at home. And I think there's beautiful symbolism there. So I said, absolutely we can do it. So the grandmother set it up and I went out there. But the cool thing was as we were waiting for all these other people to gather. You know, there was no set time for it to happen. I was just chatting with some late 20s-something guys, and one of them said, you know, I've always wanted to be baptized. I've never been baptized. Can I get baptized? And I said, Well, absolutely. And he goes, like, right now. And I said, Absolutely. And Nick, you know the story of the Ethiopian eunuch. There's water. Let's do baptism. And so, and then one of the other guys in his late 20s, these were all family and friends, extended family, extended friends, said, uh, hey, what about me? Can I be baptized? I want to be baptized. And I said, Well, yeah. And like, so right now. And so, yeah, I said, Do you, and they were both in breast clothes, you know. So I said, You may want to change that. So it was really neat. So we went out into the lake and I gave them a little heads up. Uh, you know, asked them some questions in advance, of course, prior to baptizing. And then I asked them, you know, do you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord? They said yes. And I said, Do you desire to be baptized? And they said, Yes. And I dunked them under. And so it was, it was pretty fun.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

What if they would have said they're not sure if they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord?

SPEAKER_03 3:15

It's not time to get baptized yet. So is that so? Well, we baptize all and we baptize, but if someone does not, if they're not sure about what they believe, I am not, we baptize infants. I'm not comfortable baptizing them.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

What about, you know, the Lutheran understanding that the Spirit comes upon us at baptism and it's the Spirit that gives us faith, and I would baptize them.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

That's all true. But if you extend that argument, Gerhard Bertie, this is where I sort of lost enthusiasm about baptizing people who don't want to be baptized. Is uh he said that we should go out into the streets with fire hoses and spray people down while we're saying, I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. That's the logical extension of that. And so I'm I'm Lutheran. I'm all for Lutheran. If someone says, you know, I really don't know if I want to be baptized or if I believe in Jesus, it's probably not uh the best time for an adult. Although when with little kids, with younger people, we baptize all ages. And uh yeah. But it's kind of cool on this area, and if we did one year, it goes back ways now. 20 adult baptisms. These are not rebaptisms. I was talking with one of the pastors of one of the largest churches in the area that's a Baptist church, and I said, you know, how many of these really conversion baptisms, and how many are just re-baptisms? And, you know, I appreciated his honest answer. He said that about 80% of those probably re-baptisms, people coming from a mainline or Catholic tradition. And so I said, so they're not really then necessarily conversion, because in our theology, of course, as you mentioned already, if the Holy Spirit comes upon someone in baptism, claims them as a child of God, then, you know, that baptism or at least that proclamation of faith is a natural extension of what God has been doing in their life. And my favorite, Nick, is in when it comes to baptism around here, you know, some of the evangelical teaching churches teach that, you know, adult baptism, rebaptism is a sign of your faith, of coming to faith. And and Luther taught that re-baptism, getting baptized again, is a sign of lack of faith, which has always been really interesting to walk through because you don't really trust God's action claiming us in baptism.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

And you do it to your own condemnation.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Okay, yeah, yeah. That's what Luther said. If anyone's wondering on where all of this is written, there's a wonderful article by Luther. It's in some of the compilations. It just says concerning on what is the title exactly? On concerning re-baptism. It's kind of a strange. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

He was a curmudgeon, wasn't he? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

That's that's true, yeah.

Minnesota baptisms go viral

SPEAKER_03 6:03

So, but Nick, you asked how things are in Minnesota. It is, it was wonderful, by the way. I love all of the feedback on those baptisms we got. People were excited and people were talking about it. And a couple of comments on that. I was talking with some people at the baptism, and one of them had been talking with a pastor from their Lutheran church. Or, no, someone from another Lutheran church said, Yeah, I don't think our pastor would do this. It needs to be in the church. And I don't think there's anything that says baptism needs to be in the church.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

And and then the other one was uh I love, I ran into a whole bunch of people from the Baptist churches in the area who had seen those pictures I put up, and apparently they're tracking. I put them on my personal page and our church page. And they, of course, absolutely love it. They're totally into it. And they they asked me kind of a different question. I didn't know you were allowed to do that. And I said, Well, I mean, water, you know. But Nick, the best part of the, you know, water in the word, we baptize, you know, we baptize all ages. It's not, as you pointed out, our doing. God wants to do something in them, and God wants to claim them. And it's not, you know, I'm kind of making the case against what you asked me earlier, but I mean, it's not who we are, how good we are, what we believe, if we believe enough, if we understand. It's God's action and baptism that He wants to claim us. And yeah, although my favorite thoughts. But one more story on this, you know, it's immerse. And so I I I I'd seen enough of these. I know how to do them. I just put your arm behind the back and then hang on to your hands, and you just take them right under the water and lean them back under the water. One of the guys was floating, so I took my left hand, I had to push him under. Because even Luther talked about, you know, immerse, you know, is really one of the root words of baptism. Immerse, and I mean it's not the amount of water. We're stating that, but yeah, he wasn't going under. So I had to immerse him, Nick. I had to push him under.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

People thought that was very uh put his foot on his, put your foot on his chest and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

So, Nick, I understand you have an anniversary coming up.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah,

No Questions Asked Baptisms at Abiding Grace

SPEAKER_00 8:05

well, first I do want to talk about baptism and abiding grace. Okay I have a fairly strict rule. Worship starts at 10. If you want to be baptized, you need to tell me by 9.59. That's correct. But but you you made me rethink that. Anyone in the middle of the service who says, I want to be baptized, if there's a baptism going on, you know, maybe I should just be open to it. But I don't ask any questions. If you want to be baptized, we're gonna baptize you.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

No questions asked.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

Yeah. That's great. That could be your slogan. Baptism, no questions asked.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

No questions asked. That's right. Yeah, well, I find it interesting that that's the picture of the great traction this week and not the picture of you at St. Olaf in the mid-80s. I mean, literally looking like Ferris Bueller.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

A friend of mine, we grew up in the same church. I noted that he sent me the picture during while I was leading worship services, looking like Ferris Bueller. I had they give me grief around here for wearing shorts and long sleeve shirts. I've done it just like forever. And and because I mean it's only short sleeve weather around here, I'll be what, a couple months during the year. And uh clearly I was doing it then there, Nick. I had the baggy look going 1980.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

I just love the smile on your face. It looked like you just did something that, you know, you're just you're so like you're glad you didn't get caught type of thing. That's awesome. It was great. Okay,

Abiding Grace Churchs 15th Anniversary

SPEAKER_00 9:21

so now at Abiding Grace this week, we are celebrating our 15th anniversary of organization. So we started about 16 years ago. We organized in June of 2011, so we're celebrating the 15th anniversary of that. We're making a big deal of it. We got our abiding dudes smoking briskets on Saturday. We got we're welcoming new members where the bishop is going to be here. We're signing a new charter, rededicating ourselves to the work of the kingdom. Uh, we're very excited about it. And why are we so excited about it, Andy? Because I'll tell you, I think that a 15-year anniversary celebration today is more rare than a hundredth anniversary celebration. Because that means that a church was started 15 years ago at a time when it's very hard to get a church started. And so a 15th anniversary celebration is a rare thing and something that I think should be lifted up and should be should be celebrated.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Amen. Nick, you know the data on that. 90% of ELCA church plants don't make it past year five. And then secondly, I asked one of the people at headquarters, the denominational headquarters, once about I said, how many of our plants make it and survive and throw flourish? And the answer was a little bit revealing. He said, Well, it's really hard to get data on that. I'm thinking, yeah, I'm not so sure. But and I look back, I was a mission developer now 30 years ago. And really the number of churches that have thrived or survived through that time is pretty limited. We all, in my sphere, well, most of us, not all of us, made it five years plus and we organized. But yeah, you know, having what it takes to get through all those stages of ministry. And I love, Nick, your comment that you're rededicating, you're rededicating the church to the mission, whatever language you just used, because the organizational life cycle for churches, the bell curve for churches is the same as a bell curve for organizations. And all this stuff is widely studied. And, you know, the organizational lifestyle from birth to death is about 40 years. And they say it's when you're at that peak, you know, somewhere near the top, that you really need to reinvent yourself and decide who you're going to be for your next 40 years. And if you don't do that, you get too low. And I read this wonderful insight about churches that if they say, why would we change? Everything's going great, that's the mistake the churches make. The time to change is not when things are going bad, but when things are going real, really well, you begin envisioning what's our next future. It looks like you're grasping that opportunity. I want to congratulate you on that. Nicely done.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So we're recommitting ourselves to the work of the kingdom. That's the language we're using. So it's good. Yeah. And then I'm going on sabbatical and hopefully gonna spend some time in Minnesota learning about what the next iteration of Abiding Grace is gonna look like.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah, looking forward. We're gonna work in our calendars, get that figured out. That would be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Yeah. Well, okay. 12 minutes, and we haven't even mentioned the word revelation.

unknown 12:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

People do tell me though, Nick, they like the banter on the front end. I don't know. Maybe it was one person, but a couple, maybe, but yeah.

Revelation 16: The 7 Bowls of Wrath

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Well, Andy, we're getting close to the end of Revelation. And I don't know about you, but I'm getting a little excited to be done with it. And so today we're in Revelation 16, the seven, the seven bulls of ra of the wrath of God. So let's just, you know, let's just get through it. Let's do it. It's gonna be really great. If you're listening, if you made it this far, the next whatever is gonna be really great. You're gonna be glad you listened. I think. I think so. Revelation 16, verse 1. Then they heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God. Go and pour out a so you heard a loud voice from the temple telling the angels, which means people believe that the void this is the voice of God coming from the throne, pour out the on the earth the seven bowls. So over the course of history, people have said, well, what is what what do the words on the earth mean? What do the words on the earth mean? What is meant by that? So we have scholars who have said it might mean some parts of the earth, it might mean just the common people, it might mean the Roman Empire or Roman Catholic curr clergy. These are all things that people have said, you know, people have been studying this book for 2,000 years, trying to figure out every what every word means. But Andy, why do you think Christians have interpreted these judgments so differently throughout history? And do you think revelation is describing primarily events in the first century, future events, spiritual realities recurring today, or some combination of the three? What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Well, Nick, the first thing is that I have given some of this thought, having been in Israel, I think it's back in 92, 93, and I was at the Valley of Megiddo. I'll talk about that a bit later when we talk about Armageddon. But I don't think a lot of people read Revelation, and what they want to do is just, I want to see what's coming our way. I want to look for the future. And I don't think it's that simple. I think that's a simplified viewpoint. And I don't think there's just one timeline going on here, and it's not unlike when we're preaching. We use symbolism to talk about recurrent patterns, we use symbolism to talk about what God has done, and we use symbolism to talk about what God will do. And I think that's happening here in Revelation as well. In fact, it's let's let's look at that. It's anchored in the first century, and it's using symbols and language that made sense to those people. To us, it's a mystery. We think we need to decode, but probably a lot of the, well, not more than probably, the language made sense to the reader. Second thing is the language it's used captures spiritual realities, patterns, you know, human empires setting themselves up against God. I mean, again and again over the centuries, we don't need, you know, to unpack that one. It's obvious. But I think thirdly, the future is also the third timeline that's happening here. The cycle of judgment and rescue finds its resolution in the absolute, in God, the final fulfillment when God has promised to undo evil and when God's kingdom is fully established. That's why we need to rededicate ourselves to the kingdom, like some churches in Texas are doing. Nick, what are you what is your take? Am I right? Am I wrong? Tell me I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

I think you're right.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

I Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

I think every generation of Christians reads Revelation through the context of their own struggles. And so for first century Christians, that meant they read it through the context of Rome. For medieval Christians, they read it through the context of a corrupt religious system. Where, you know, so you talk about the Catholic clergy, you know, and and then today's readers, we read it through the lens of what's going on today in the world, geopolitical events. And so, and and because revelation is written in such a weird way, it lends itself to being read through the the the current struggles that Christians are dealing with. And so we all try to put Revelation, make it make sense in our own life and in our own time. And so, but I think what it all it's saying is that it it's pointing us to a future climax of evil and judgment where where God is gonna win, God is gonna be victorious, God's gonna be victorious over a world that has allowed evil to take over. And uh and so that's why I think Revelation has been such a powerful book for so long, and it's why it's it's so fascinating to people today, just as it was fascinating 2,000 years ago. And so that's that's why I think you know, I think there's this cycle repeating throughout human history, is that empires rise, people worship power, Christians face pressure in the midst of that empire, and God calls people to repentance. And so that's that's what's happening in Revelation, and that's what's happening, you know, throughout human history.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

Absolutely.

Are We Living in the End Times?

SPEAKER_03 17:14

One other comment on on this pattern idea is Nick, so often I have spoken to people over the years who say, I think we're in the end times now. And two thoughts in that. First of all, often those people are at the end of life, you know, coming toward the end of their years. And it's just interesting to me that often it's when they're at that stage in life that they say that. And then the second thing is, well, technically they're right. We're in the now, but not yet. Jesus, the the kingdom is broken into the world, but the kingdom has not been fulfilled.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

So we should thirdly, every generation of Christians since Revelations was written have thought they've been living in the end times.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Oh, yeah, yeah. And we could, you know, talk about in the span of time, what is living in the end times? Is it like it's gonna happen next year or next month, or is it gonna happen, you know, a hundred years from now?

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah.

The Law of Judgment and Mercy

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Okay, so let's summarize a couple things that happen here before we get to the next one. So the first bowl is poured out. Those who worship the beast and received his mark are now marked by God with painful sores. The second bowl, the sea is turned to blood, the third bowl, fresh waters are polluted with blood. And then Andy, that leads us to verses five and six.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Okay. Verse five, and I heard the angel of the waters say, You are just, O holy one, who are and were, for you have judged these things, because they shed the blood of saints and prophets. You have given them blood to drink, it is what they deserve, it is what they deserve. So they apparently they deserve to drink blood here, Nick, and those who delighted in shedding of the blood of the saints have to drink it. Uh okay. And the angel declares that God's judgment is just because the world violently rejected God's people. Okay, so Nick, you get a fun one here. How do you reconcile judgment and mercy in God's character? And these revelations showing us a God who punishes people. Do we get what we deserve, Nick? And why are Christians today really uncomfortable, unlike previous generations, to talk about God's judgment? All right. So we've got one hour, Nick, to unpack those here.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

This is great. I just I just love it. It is what they deserve. It is what they deserve. You know, it's like, do we believe in a God who gives us what we deserve, or do we believe in a God who gives us what we don't deserve through grace? But so okay, they delighted in shedding the blood of the saints, so now they're forced to drink the blood. I mean, isn't that part of Holy Communion? I didn't actually have that in my nose. That just a thought that came to mind. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Body and blood of Christ given for you.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, so you drink the blood of the one whose blood you shed. So

Judgment and Mercy in the Character of God

SPEAKER_00 20:00

uh anyway, okay. Well, I'm gonna start with the last question first. Why do we struggle with this? I I I think I don't I think many Christians today do not like judgment language because because we've heard judgment language used to manipulate people and and it happens all the time where you use judgment language to manipulate people into doing things that they are you know the the uh there was a a church in uh church in Columbus, Ohio, I forgot the name of the church, while I was in seminary there, the pastor came out and said, if everyone in the congregation today gave one hundred percent of what they earned this week, one hundred percent of or or whatever no next week when you come in, give one hundred percent of everything you earn this week, then we will hear the audible voice of God, right? And went around interviewing people, sticking microphones in people's faces, saying, Are you gonna give one hundred percent of what you earn this week? So that you know, this but if you don't, if you don't, you are asking judgment and condemnation into your life, right? And the next week came and they didn't hear the audible voice of God, so someone held out, but imagine that as a stewardship campaign. I mean, they must have had a record giving the next week. But I think we struggle with this because we've seen it used to manipulate people. And okay, so why how do we reconcile judgment and mercy in the character of God? Well, I I I think mercy and judgment aren't necessarily opposites. I think mercy shows mercy is shown by God's patience and by God's continue continued calls to repent. But eventually evil must be confronted. Eventually, you know, tyrants will not rule forever, martyrs are not gonna be forgotten, evil does not get the final word. That's just that's a hopeful story for Christians. And so this isn't necessarily something that Christians need to be afraid of. And I've I think we've said this over and over again that and the end of all things in Revelation is good news for Christians because it means all those who persecuted you, all those who caused you to suffer, you're no longer gonna suffer at their hands, and evil's not gonna get the final word. So this is good news. That God is going to win. And so I don't think judgment and mercy are incompatible or opposite. And and part of this is I think sin destroys itself. I think that's part of what's going on here. Is that Revelation portrays people experiencing the consequences of their own evil. You know, it's God is giving people over to what they've chosen. Evil becomes self-destructive. And we could see we see this how that we see this in people struggling with addiction and uh and hatred and greed and violence, and then you know they end up alone and miserable, or you know, they they eventually consume themselves. And and I think and so you know revolution it may be less about God inventing suffering and more about humanity just experiencing where rebellion against God ultimately leads. It just leads to, you know, it leads to what it is.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

My my take, nicely said, by the way, just to affirm some of the things that you said, God has perfect justice and love. That's kind of how we reconcile judgment and mercy and punishment versus tragic consequences. I mean, we kind of see both in this, you know, but there are natural consequences to dumb decisions and to evil by human beings that we can't get

Lutheran and Gods Judgment

SPEAKER_03 23:19

around. And most interesting, the one that you started with was discomfort with God's judgment. You know, often what we do when we read the Bible is if we don't like it, we reject it, which is a sign of, I would say, the tension between human will and the Holy Spirit. And preachers, by the way, are not immune to that, are not immune to that. And I think in modern culture, we're uncomfortable with judgment because the we prioritize therapeutic love and tolerance and kind of our own autonomy. And you're right, part of that is that we've heard, you know, hellfire, brimstone preaching. And so we sort of lean toward grace. And the upside of that is that, I mean, we wish for all people the grace that we ourselves have received. And but grace, again, I think from a Lutheran perspective, comes through faith, and it does not come from our own understanding or effort. That said, we don't wish for other people not to receive the grace that we have received. I mean, way back I heard this phrase, which is that universalism is the pious hope of the faithful. In other words, those who are people of faith wish for all people to be saved, and we do not going around, we do not go around when grace isn't working, you don't go around picking out, you know, I'm in and you're out, and you better be more like me. Sometimes churches do do that, and that's not necessarily helpful, but we wish for all people to come to, I'm forgetting the exact verse, but knowledge of the grace of God, which knowledge not as information, but is something residing in the heart. That's my take, Nick.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yeah, and and we just talked about this kind of last night that the the story of the prodigal son, about the the son who returns home and you know is shown grace by the father, and then the older brother who wants to exclude the younger brother from grace, you know, there's still even grace for him. You know, all that I have is yours. And so there's there's grace for us, there's grace for everyone. And if you want to withhold grace, there's even grace for that. But but but we are certainly called to show and share grace with everyone. Yeah. Okay, continuing on the fourth bowl, the sun scorches with fire. So whoever wrote Revelation has certainly been to Texas in the summer.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Uh I I dick, I wanted to come visit you, and you said, no, don't come now, come later. Uh but keep going.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Don't come in August. I'll come to you in August. You come to me in February.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Okay, that's great.

What Kind of Darkness Should Christians Fear?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

And then the fifth bull, verse 10, is a plague of darkness, Andy. A plague of darkness. So darkness is part of scripture all throughout. The ninth plague of Egypt was darkness, and but it had spiritual overtones. Uh Exodus 10 tells us about how this darkness that can be felt. It's not just a darkness that takes away your ability to see, but it actually can be felt. So the darkness and the darkness itself is it's felt and it's a precursor to what heaven, uh sorry, what hell is going to be like? Jesus describes in Matthew 25, 30 that hell itself is outer darkness. So it's outer darkness. It's more than just the absence of light. It's a it's a darkness that can be felt, it's separation, it's spiritual blindness, it's loneliness. So, what kind of darkness, Andy, should Christians fear most? Physical darkness, suffering, or spiritual darkness? And have you seen anyone experience spiritual darkness even while everything looked good on the outside?

SPEAKER_03 26:42

Yes, I have, and that's probably true of all of us. You know, the light and darkness metaphor is so good. We tend to think of it abstractly, but think about your experiences with light and darkness. I mean, woke up this morning, you know, I don't know. I woke up for the first time, I think it was like a little around five, either a little before, a little after. And the sun was already coming up, and it was just so amazing. Truth be told, I didn't get up at that time, I laid back down again, but it was just a powerful that light coming into the world does something to us. And there are all these studies now that say the sunlight and getting sun early in the morning and getting movement and sun. There's something physiologically that happens within us. So I want us to capture first what is happening there. And there are signs to darkness that are the opposite of that. I would say that spiritual darkness is what we want to fear the most because that's eternal. And, you know, separation from God. And however you would define that, it's not good in any of those. And Jesus warned us, you know, losing your spiritual light, you know, depending on the language you use, you could say it gives you an eternal emptiness and a spiritual emptiness. I think that's the answer to that question. And as I said, on spiritual darkness, I think it's at work in all of us. You know, I think one of the benefits of Lutheran theology versus other theologies is that we're very honest and we're we remind ourselves of the darkness that is within, that all fall short of the glory of God. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. That's in 1 John. And people experience deep spiritual darkness and it can have many causes, but I think it's related. We have a theology of wholeness where all of the aspects of human life are related and interact with one another. And I mean, people experience a numbness, despair, loss of meaning, while meanwhile, outwardly everything can look fine. And as pastors, we realize often when we're having a conversation with someone who looks like they have their life together, you know, in every way, that often there's something going on in the inside. They may be strong in one area, but they're seeking and hoping for something else that really prosperity, at least material prosperity, even prosperity of other sorts, can't really fill. And Nick, I mean, there's a whole sermon in that one. Good questions. That's kind of what I'm thinking. What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Yeah, I mean, the scariest darkness is when someone has lost the ability to recognize the truth, lost the ability to recognize goodness, lost the ability to recognize love, they've lost the ability to recognize God at work. And and and I've in 16 years of ministry, I've probably had a just a couple conversations with people who have been in that moment. And you know, when they've lost the ability to to hear God's promises and to, you know, it's it's hard. It's hard. It's isolation. It's and it's like, you know, uh you can say all the right things and you can be present for them them in all the right ways. And there's just you know, at that point, it it's almost like you have to recommend them to someone who's a professional. Not to say we're not, you know, we're professionals in in in in ministry work, but but man, sometimes it just it's tough, and you just want so bad for someone to kind of you want to help them get out of that darkness, but but we're not always trained to do that. But uh yeah, it's it's a scary thing.

What is community in the church?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Now, I the the thing that I find interesting is that darkness is isolation, it's isolation, it's loneliness, and sometimes that might sound appealing, but we have this shared history that's not that old of COVID, where we were kind of in quarantine and isolated and and what that was like, and I think people longed for community, and I think that community is a is an important part of life, and yet even as a society, tech as technologically advanced as we are, with live streaming and with social media and all that stuff, it's like this this false community, but we're like actually being together though, being together is an important part of life, and it's an important, you know, fellowship with one another is an important part of feeding our soul. And and I think that you know that's part of living in the light is being together and recognizing the importance of of being together and being in community and relationship with one another.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

And you know, Nick, the deep, the revival movements that have really changed and empowered Christianity over the ages have all had that at the core. I mean, in in recent history and our memory, not our memory, but in recent church history, it'd be the work of the Wesley brothers, you know, and and they would have small groups where they asked these questions that we would never think of asking today. And it was radical transparency and honesty with other people about their lives. And it just took off. It's fascinating. What revived and and what brought revival to the church wasn't superficial kind of, yeah, everything's fine. It was deep truth and deep honesty sharing about the state of one's soul. And uh, I've seen statistics and and you know, history, historical write-ups on that, and it's pretty fascinating. And, you know, the deepest need of the human heart is really to just have somebody and some people and people that understand you and accept you and from whom you find life. And we just go our whole lives looking for that. And, you know, sometimes in churches, small groups are about as close as we get to that, whether they're organically formed or mechanically, you know, orchestrated by the church. Usually they're a mix of both. And we go looking for that, and studies show that it even in the church, it takes about six times to find that group that has that real chemistry that you just you know can be with other people, that you just, you know, can't wait to get together with them. And that gathering just creates something within you. Nick safety.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah, where you can be yourself. Yeah.

The Sixth Bowl, The Euphrates Dries Up

SPEAKER_03 33:04

All right. Should we move on to verse 12 here, Nick? Yeah. The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east. So, Nick, the sixth bowl. The Euphrates dries up, kings from the East come with their armies. They're gonna have a great battle. And this battle called Armageddon is one of the most famous images of revelation. And Nick, here do you what do you think about this? You think that it's meant to be understood literally, symbolically, both? And why do you think humanity keeps believing that political power and violence or war can ultimately save us? In other words, Nick, if we can get the right party elected and in power, I mean, that's gonna solve it, Nick. I mean, we're gonna be, we're gonna be good. So uh answer that one.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

I'm gonna ignore the last thing you said.

unknown 34:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Totally ignore it. You don't want to take the bait and dive into politics, Nick. You know, that always ends well.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

You're so good at this, Andy. I'm so grateful for you. That's right.

Should I take Armageddon Literally?

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Okay, so some Christians, going back to the first question, is it you know, is this meant to be understood literally? I think some of us see Armageddon as a real future conflict tied to world events, that it's gonna happen, that there's gonna be this major conflict, but it's not gonna be between nations. It's not it's gonna be between the nations of the world and God, and God is going to win. That's what Armageddon is gonna be all about. It's gonna be goodness versus evil, and evil is gonna be the armies of the world, and the evil's uh the armies of God are going to win, they're gonna be the armies of goodness. And so, but I think that it's important that we recognize that Revelation consistently uses symbolic imagery, and this, you know, and so that this we have this imagery of this great war happening because there is a human tendency to trust violence, empire, and power instead of God. Human history repeatedly assumes that peace and prosperity comes through stronger armies, stronger leaders, stronger nations, but Revelation challenges the assumption by showing that every empire eventually falls, every earthly empire eventually falls, and every empire throughout history has fallen, except for the current ones, but they too most likely will fall one day. And so the battle is more spiritual, I think that it is military. It's truth versus deception, it's worship of God versus worship of the beast, the worship of power, worship of greed. And so I think that's kind of what this is all getting at. But Andy, you've been there, and so uh I don't know if that leads uh lead, you know what? So I I'm more interested in what you have to say, and you know, it if you want to Nick, I think it's about time to go back.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

You know, come to think of it, I'm a little older than my dad was when he led a tour over there, and it was pretty cool. But part of the tour in Israel was to go to the Valley of Megiddo, and then I remember a talk that he was giving because I was pretty interested in it. You know, okay, so there was a time, Nick, when I was interested in Revelation. That that's what I just uh revealed there.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Is that in the Ferris Bueller days?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Yes, it would have been a couple years past, Ferris Bueller. And we're standing in the Valley of Megiddo, and Dad talked about this. He said there's some people that say literally in this valley, this is where the final battle will take place. And then there are other Christians that are understand this is more that language is more symbolic of, you know, good and evil justice and evil coming, you know, to resolution in this world. And I, you know, of course, no surprise here, tend to end on the symbolic, you know, it points to a strategic place for a final front confrontation. I think there's something powerful, meaningful to that, that there is a place, but in the end it's symbolic, the ultimate clash between the forces of empire and sovereignty. A friend of mine put on social media once, he's a pastor, you know, all of the empires. It was a it was a picture of the globe, and it showed all the growing, expanding and declining empires since the day of Jesus. And it's just amazing. It just really puts history into perspective to see all of these empires that suddenly get huge and then they expand and then they they decline, they decrease, and they're tiny, and then they're gone, and then there are new empires, and there's all this stuff happening. And the idea of it is that through all of those times, the reign of God, the kingdom of God has been continuous. You know, but here's kind of, if we were to put it in a single sentence, Nick, for me, it's this that external force cannot cure spiritual brokenness and sin that kind of cause conflict in the in the first place. I mean, I think that nations need to be capable of preparing of you know, defending themselves. And I do believe that there is right and wrong, and that we need to be a defender, you know, often that means militarily, of um, you know, that rightness and freedom in the world. And all of that can always be debated, and that's a good thing that it can be debated. Uh, because when it can't be debated, that's often when darkness and evil take over. Nick?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

I think what's important to say though is that our armies are never going to defeat evil for good.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

And when I say for good, I mean for all time. I mean, we can, you know, even if you have the most righteous nation of all time and it has got an army that only fights, you know, against the the purest of evil in the world, it will never abolish evil. And the final victory over evil is gonna come from God. It's not gonna come from humanity. And I think that's a that that that to me is like the most important piece of this.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Yeah, absolutely. Two two comments then. I was talking with a veteran once who had been on the front lines of just uh absolutely brutal war. I'm not gonna go into the details, but he said, right, you know, and he carries those injuries both within and and bodily to this day. He said I would step in and protect the innocent again without even thinking about it. That's the first one. But, you know, that also what you just said is correct. Strongest army can't, you know, do what only God can do.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

So

An Abundant Grace Holy Land Trip?

SPEAKER_00 39:31

yeah. Uh, but did I also hear you, you know, I'm I'm I'm just paraphrasing here, but did I hear you suggest an abiding grace holy land trip? I I'm sorry, a grace abides holy land trip.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Well, that would be, Nick, I think it'd be pretty fun to go over there. I was talking with someone the other day. I remember staying with my dad on that trip. I roomed with him in the what was the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, and this other person had been there, another pastor, another pastor friend of mine is leading one this fall over to the Holy Land. And yeah, I it was pretty cool. I mean, here's here's what happens when you go over there. You're in all of these places that most of the time you've only read about. And it's pretty profound and pretty, pretty meaningful to be standing in those spaces and think, wow, you know, this thing that happened happened right here. And in those places where there's not historical consensus as to where it happened, places like I think it's Golgotha, you know, where exactly was the cross, questions like that. It's pretty cool to get into that space and based on what you read and understand, to really wonder. And and it it puts new context on your faith. I mean, the number of times I've preached about the Dead Sea having been to the Dead Sea is it's pretty wild.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah. Well, let's plan it.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Let's do it.

unknown 40:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

You listeners at home, if you want to go to the Holy Land, let us know. Uh it'd be fun. We could record a podcast on the banks of the Jordan River.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Nick, we could even we could get rebaptized.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Yes, to our own condemnation.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

You can't get re baptized.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

You can't definitely.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Okay, verses 17 through 19. The seventh bowl and the final judgments, Andy.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

You could rededicate, you could recommit your life. Recommit your life. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

But you cannot have the Holy Spirit come into your life a second time. The Spirit comes once. That's right. And does not fail. All right, the seventh angel poured his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, It is done. A loud voice, Andy, from the throne, God's voice saying, It is done. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a violent earthquake, such as had not occurred since people were upon the earth. So violent was that earthquake. So violent was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. God remembered great Babylon and gave her the wine cup of the fury of his wrath. So the seals were followed by trumpets and trumpets followed by bowls, but there will be no more judgments upon the earth after this. It is done. These are the final judgments. God shakes the earth with an earthquake, and Babylon falls. So it is done and an earthquake. Andy, does that remind you of anything when Jesus on the cross says it is finished, and Matthew's gospel says there's an earthquake after that?

SPEAKER_02 42:21

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

So do we see a connection between Christ's victory at the cross and the final victory judgment described here in Revelation?

SPEAKER_03 42:30

Well, you know, this is an announcement, Nick. This is it's being announced. It's coming from the throne itself that there will be no more delay. And, you know, it's, you know, there will be no more judgments after this. I mean, this is it. It is done. I mean, Nick, wouldn't wouldn't church announcements be so much better if they were symbolic like this? And really proclaimed. I mean, so that you know, the old line is you got to preach the announcements. And I mean, announcements would be people might actually listen to the announcements, Nick, if we presented the announcements like this.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

I mean, you know like on Saturday, we're smoking brisket, and if you don't come, there'll be never at brisket, there'll be no more brisket ever again.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

That's right. You know, that kind of thing. It is done. But uh, the beauty of this big announcement, Nick, and all of the language and symbolism that goes with it is pretty basic, pretty short. Finality, it is done, it is finished. And you already named the connection to the cross where Jesus said that. And so, and in both cases, a great earthquake accompanies the ultimate definitive shattering of the power of sin and evil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Yeah. I mean that's such a Lutheran response. Yeah, the end of sin and evil. Oh, yeah, that's

Revelation 8: The Final Battle

SPEAKER_02 43:47

I guess.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Revelation is leading us to this point of this it is finished, it is done, and God triumphs. It is you could say that revelation kind of parallels the gospel story. It is it is the Story of God's overall victory in the end. And uh you know, evil does its worst, God absorbs it, love and God triumph, and the revelation shows the final collapse of all the systems and all the powers that oppose God, and you know, and it's done.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

It's like, oh yeah, well, that's good. It's finished, you betcha.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

I love here that it's just the seven poured the bowl into the air, like just threw it up into the air, like you know, it's this this image of like, you know, when you pour something on something, you're just it's just being poured on that one little spot. But this is just poured out into the air and on to everything and everywhere, and it's God's final victory, and Babylon falls, Babylon, all the systems of this world that you know unite to go against God, and and it's good news.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Shouldn't we be shouldn't we be more excited by this, Nick? Do we just assume this? Do we just take this for granted?

SPEAKER_00 44:54

I mean, uh we should be more excited, but because it's written in such a weird way, we don't know that this is permission to be excited.

unknown 45:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Do Lutherans get excited, like happy and enthusiastic, rah-rah, for stuff, or is this kind of like I I was hearing the old Norwegian, kind of in my mind, oh yeah, well, you betcha that's that's good then there.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Uh I grew up German Lutheran. We got excited about lots of stuff. Okay, Germans got excited. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

Okay, okay. Well, I'll go with it. I'm partly German, partly Norwegian, serving a Swedish congregation, but in today's world, there's really none of that's left.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

It's uh But it it's it it's it you know, you you always have to look for reasons to celebrate. I think it's an important part of pastoral ministry, always looking for reasons to celebrate. It's like so a couple, you know, two months, six weeks ago, I was like, okay, what's something we can look forward to? I'm like, oh, we have our 15th anniversary coming up, let's celebrate that. So I simply said, okay, well I invited the bishop, and I said, Okay, the bishop's coming and let's celebrate, and then all of a sudden it just, you know, okay, we'll smoke meat, we'll do this, we'll we'll have new members that day. We'll do and and you know, people are looking for reasons to celebrate. So as pastors, we have to give them reasons to celebrate. So that's part of ministry, right? Amen.

The End of Revelation

SPEAKER_00 46:08

All right, so Revelation 16. Andy, we're almost done. We're getting closer and closer, and it's the the end of Revelation is great. Like if if you've stuck with us this long, like the end of Revelation is great. It's it's the promises and the you know the streets of gold and you know, all the the it's gonna be great. So thank you for sticking with us this long, and we will see you again next week. Take care, everybody.