Revelation 14 - Special Guest Emily Martin

The Most Rev. Emily Martin of Iowa joins Nick & Andy with her humor for Revelation 14 including warning, worship, endurance, and hope:

Together they explore:
• The difference between the mark of the Lamb and the mark of the beast
• Why only the redeemed can sing the song of heaven
• What “Babylon” represents and why it still matters today
• How Christians remain faithful under spiritual pressure
• The powerful promise: “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord”

Revelation is strange, mysterious, and relevant — and this conversation tackles some of the biggest spiritual questions Christians still ask today.

Listen in and join us for a thoughtful and encouraging discussion!

Transcript

Were Such Big Failures

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Everything we do with disappointment, with utter disappointment because we're such big failures. But when we see our children living faithfully, when we see our kids do something unprompted and they do something, like there's so much pride that swells up. And I think that that's the way we should see God. That God, when we do something out of faith, when we do something that's kind of that God's instead of God looking at us with utter and all you know, total disappointment, that God looks at us like, oh, I'm so excited, you're getting it. I'm so excited. It makes me so happy. There's so much pride and joy because you would do something faithful. Um and I think that that it's a different way of looking at God and looking at the way we we live. And I think those are the deeds that follow us into eternity. I hope anyway.

Special Guest on Grace Abides Podcast

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's word one chapter at a time. Good morning, everyone. Happy Wednesday, and thank you for listening to the Grace Abides podcast. We have a very special uh episode for you today. Nick and Andy are here, as we are always here, but we have a special guest with us today. We're very excited about our special guest. Andy, can you tell us a little bit about our

Trains

SPEAKER_02 1:30

special guest?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Is that a train that I'm hearing? Is that what is in the background? That is not our I was wondering. Uh we have a special guest. Whose train is that? Emily, we haven't had you on in for 10 seconds, and and uh the podcast is getting screwed up. Is that at your house? That is great. We have a guest this morning, Nick, the Reverend Emily Martin.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

How long is this train? That's right.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

That's great. You couldn't uh time that better. We have Nick, uh, the Reverend Emily Martin, uh, who I remember we found her nine years ago without a church, without a job, with nothing. We brought her in, we raised her up, we trained her up, and then she left us. Uh but we sent her out as a as a missionary to Iowa, Nick, to to reach the lost, the thousands of lost in Iowa. I'm so looking forward to hearing how that went, Nick. And so uh welcome, Emily. We're glad to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

So, Andy, are you claiming responsibility for all good things she does? That's what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Uh I I take no responsibility. We'll start to Emily, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Thank you. But do you also take responsibility for all the bad things then? Because the new churches might have a list for you.

unknown 3:08

That's great.

Emilys New Job

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Well, Emily, tell us about the new churches. Where are you serving now? And is it nice to be away from the colleague that you had to deal with for the last eight and a half years?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

I signed up to do this, so I guess I don't know if that answers your question. Um, but yeah, so I am down in Des Moines, which is that's I live in downtown Des Moines, so that's a train that you heard. Um hopefully it'll be the last one. But it also wakes me up at 2 a.m. So that makes you feel better. Um, so I serve uh two small congregations, uh uh Luther Memorial and Grandview Lutheran, that are on the east side of Des Moines. Um, and then uh Luther Memorial has also had a lifetime uh connection with the college across the street, Grandview University. Uh so I'm also the campus pastor uh for Grandview University. So I get to wear three hats most days. Um and it's just been I've been here since March 15th. And uh so I stepped in right before Easter and it has been really exciting, uh just trying to figure out what every day looks like. When um I was up in Cambridge, uh there is this uh cranky senior pastor who kept using the phrase building the plane while we're in the air. And uh I don't think it was even half as true then as it is with what we're doing right now. Uh the two churches have never had a partnership before. And uh the the college typically has been the one to call the pastor and then shares them with the college, with the church, not the other way around. So every part of my job, uh the relationship is looks brand new for everyone involved. So it is both a little overwhelming, but at the same time, like I get to set the expectations. So that's been kind of exciting.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

That's awesome. Well, good luck to you. We're happy if uh we're excited about your new position. We're glad you're able to join us today. Uh, heard you went out when you heard that we were gonna do this Bible study, but you went out and bought a Bible on Monday night. So you can actually probably have to be. You could be ready. So yeah, very excited. And uh and Andy has been talking about you on the show now for seven years or eight, uh however long we've been since 2019. So if there's anything you want to say right now, feel free. This is your opponent. This is like a therapy session, so feel free to just let it all out.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I just so I've actually been a listener since you guys have started. So I've still sent to most of the episodes. And um, I just would like it to be known that um in handing Mike uh Andy the microphone that gave him the plague, um, that I actually ended up calling, and he did not. So I'm just saying that um maybe maybe he came out on top of that situation. Also, he had to take over my sermon mid-sermon, and he had too much fun um doing that.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

So Nick, it was so great.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

This very was uh no, she's like preaching third sermon. Yeah, I was uh preaching like I had made it through the first service, second service was a little rough, but I'm like, I just got one to go. You just kind of rely on your stage health to get you through it. And I just got to a point where there was something in my throat I could not get rid of. And it was like, I have to figure out how to do something. I'm about to cry on this stage. And um finally I just I just go up to Andy, who was always sitting in the front row, and I just said, like, you you need to take over. Can can you do this? The and then he came up and I pointed to where I was in the manuscript, and he abandoned that entirely. And uh he preached what I love it because he got to preach what he would have preached if he was the preacher. Um and then every once in a while he would say, and then Emily wrote, and then so it was but I was watching the sermon in the other room trying to get my voice back, and all of a sudden I go, Well, I didn't say that, but okay, that's a point, and so it was it was good teamwork.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Andy can fill the time, andy can always fill the time.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

So uh that's great. That's great.

Emily Martins Longest Sermon Ever

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Awesome. Of course, you know, Nick, the long the record for the longest sermon ever at Cambridge Lutheran Church is held by uh Emily Martin, who and she did it uh when the cat's away when I was preaching at your church, talking about a previous sermon that had been long. She broke the record while I was gone. 47 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

So and I believe on that morning, Andy, while she was breaking a record in Cambridge, you broke a record in abiding grace.

unknown 7:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Nick, we're low, we're known for our long sermons.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

They're good though. That's good. No, uh I've gone much longer than that day. But uh I had I had one sermon where I was preaching where the guy, uh, this was back, I don't know, 2014 when we had like a camcorder in the back or something, and he I looked at him and he pointed at the clock. Midsermon, he pointed up at the clock. So I'm like, oh yeah, I guess I'm need to wrap this up.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

It's bad if they point to the clock. Just one addition to Emily's story, Nick. I was sick for like two months after I could not shake whatever that thing was. And uh boy, it was it was miserable. So it was fun though to uh uh take over midsermon for Emily. I was up to the task. I I finished. What she gets to do.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

It's like whose line is it anyway?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Right? That's right.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Preaching edition.

Revelation, Chapter 14

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Nick, why is Emily here anyway?

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Emily is here because we are really excited about potentially putting together a second podcast where the three of us talk about life and ministry and uh but she's here today talking about Revelation chapter 14.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Okay, that's right. That is correct.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Um, yeah, so uh Revelation chapter 14. Andy, once we're through Revelation chapter 14, we're almost two-thirds or we're more than two-thirds of the way through Revelation.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

We've been in Revelation forever.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Aren't you getting excited? We're coming out of the world.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

I'm excited though about this other podcast we're gonna start and we're gonna talk about ministry and it's gonna be different, and we're gonna talk about what we're doing in our churches. And I thought it'd be so cool to bring Emily on board because I mean, we all serve different size churches. We're all from different generations. Uh, it'd be men and women, and uh it's it's just it just would be really cool. So I'm excited we're looking at doing that and uh uh kind of in the early stages of planning that and seeing what that will look like. So awesome.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I just think Andy's really excited to talk about the weather from three different places.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

She she gave it gave us grief. Nick, she is uh she's a faithful listener to our podcast. She's also a critic. Like, you know, I sit in the front row of church with a you know a clipboard taking notes in my bulletin. Not literally, but I used to actually literally until they made me stop. But uh she listens faithfully, and she one of her critiques is that we always start with a weather report and and we have not changed. We haven't done it yet today, though.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

So well, I I hope that over the course of seven years, Emily, you've you think we've gotten at least a little bit better at this. That's right. Marginally better.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

All right, I didn't hear significantly less about Andy's cats, so that's good.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Um anyway,

Gods Name On Their Foreheads

SPEAKER_02 10:38

okay. Weather report. Uh it's like 65 here and cloudy. What's it doing in there?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

It's 65 and cloudy.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Oh, there we go. So right between us in Iowa, what is it, Emily? 52 with trains.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

She has no idea. 52 with trains. All right, there we go.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

It's 52 with the train.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

All right, Revelation chapter 14, verse 1. We're going back to the 144,000. All right, here we go. Then I looked, and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him are 144,000 who had his name and his father's name written on their foreheads. So we're back to the 144,000 from earlier in Revelation, um, and they are with the Lamb in heaven uh with the his name written on their foreheads. So if you listen to Revelation 13, we talked about the beast. We talked about how the beast would have a mark on their foreheads, but now the lamb has his name written on their foreheads. So, Andy, what does it mean that the followers of the Lamb have God's name written on their foreheads? And how does that contrast with the mark of the beast from last chapter?

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Well, Nick, what was bugging me about this question was what is this forehead thing? I mean, a mark on the forehead, why? I mean, so I looked into that a little bit, and apparently it's a seal of belonging. It's uh in the ancient world, a mark on the forehead was who you belong to. And so it's kind of, you know, in some ways symbolic, but it's also this thing that was present in that culture, uh, talking about who that you belong to. And so it's simply uh a symbol that you belong to God. 144,000, they belong entirely to God and they're under God's protection. Now we've talked before about, you know, what does 144,000 mean? Is it only 144,000? We've talked about church denominations that said we're we are the 144,000 until they got bigger than 144,000, which was interesting. But it's kind of this it's you're under the protection and you're under the identity of and you're under the ownership of uh the lamb, the name of the lamb. And so Nick and Emily.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

To me, I think the forehead is the first thing people see when they meet you, right? If you're making eye contact with somebody, it's the first thing you see. And so there's there's importance in having something in the forehead that identifies who you are and who you belong to. Uh, and so I think what we're what is true about the world is that uh that God and the beast or evil or whatever you want to call it are trying to claim you. And so basically the question is who are you living for? And or whose image, you know, are you living for? Are you living for the beast? Are you are you you know into worldly power and idolatry and all that stuff? Are you living for God? Um, because living for God, I think, is, you know, the Holy Spirit comes and shapes our lives and so that so that when people see our lives, they see that we belong to God and that we are living for God. Um, and so we're shaped by the values of God instead of the values of the world. And so I think that's what's important for us today is to think about the ways in which we live uh for God and the the ways in which our lives reflect that we belong to God. I don't know. Emily, do you have any thoughts on this?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Uh not a whole lot. I was thinking, um, you know, like talking about like putting things on our forehead. Um, you know, living downtown now, I see all kinds of people on a very regular basis. And I was reading through this yesterday, went for a walk, and I saw this guy that had a whole lot of face tattoos. And all I could think of was like, wow, that is extreme. I can't imagine feeling any certain way about anything in my life enough to put it on my face, except maybe my face. And then I just kind of read this thing about putting it on your forehead. I was like, well, yep, that feels extreme. And that um I would I suppose I would put that right on my face, so that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Maybe we can start a new trend getting something tattooed on our forehead to show that we believe in Jesus and like everyone will follow us.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Nick, you start, you start that trend.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Ash Wednesday, 365 days a year.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

That's great. That's great.

Worship

SPEAKER_01 14:49

All right, verse three of Revelation 14. And they, the 144,000, sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures, and before the elders, no one could learn that song except the 144,000 who'd been redeemed from the earth. Okay, so uh Nick, why do you think the only the redeemed can learn this song? And I mean, what's what's the deal with this song? And what might this teach us about salvation and worship and belonging to God? Uh, what's your take?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

My take on that is I think heaven is going to be an incredible experience. I think it's an incredible idea for us now, but it's going to be an incredible experience for us when we get there. And so I think this song can only be understood by those who experience the transformational love and grace that only happens in God's presence. Uh, and so they they know they know forgiveness, they know uh salvation firsthand. Their hope is is they've experienced the uh result of their hope, or all this that they've hoped for is now coming to fruition. Uh, and so uh I think what this when we talk about worship, I think this is a reminder that true worship is not a performance, it's a response of hearts changed by God, right? That uh we have experienced transformation through faith. We've experienced transformation through the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. And so that, you know, the as we sing and worship, we are worshiping in a way that no one else can worship because we know our story, we know what led us to that moment, and we know how God has changed us. Uh, and so it's a song that we can't teach anyone that the it's only something we can experience.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

So uh Yeah, I think that is right on the mark. I mean, that was one of the really early critiques of uh seeker worship, seeker-sensitive worship, seeker-targeted worship, which is worship designed for the non-believer. And how can it be worship? was the question. Well, the answer to that was true worship comes from a heart that's experienced God's grace. And the non-believer may not really be able to participate in worship because of a heart that hasn't been transformed, but they can see and be around and and see other people who are witness worshiping and witnesses, you know, worship is really a witness. Uh, when you see it, why are they singing out and what has happened in their life and what does it look like? That's why I think it's so important uh that we worship and that we sing from the heart and we sing songs that, you know, just allow us to express fully kind of what's going on within us, and we powerfully proclaim these truths. I think it's, you know, it's just powerful. So Emily, any thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah, um, I got a couple on this one, and and part of it was it kind of it makes me think back to when she's talking about being in the shepherd and how like his f his sheep know his voice and how there's that that recognition of of a common voice.

Why Familiar Songs Matter

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Um and then the other piece I was thinking of and it just kind of came to me a second ago, was this idea of like a shared experience being something that shapes us and this idea that you know we we can come together because we have this shared piece of I've experienced God in this way, or I've felt hardship and experienced God in this way. Uh this coming Sunday on Pentecost, I'm talking about um evangelism and how we use our shared stories to invite others into the fold and how this shared song piece, you know, speaks to this idea that you know we all come together under this thing that we've experienced together that makes worship you know what it is and makes it both vast and and beautiful or what it was, but I I was just impressed that Emily's sermon's already done and it's Wednesday. She knows what she's theoretically finished.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

That's impressive. That's good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

See, uh Nick, but we used to do, I don't know, Emily sounds like Emily's still doing it. We get that outline in early in the week because we print it in the bulletin and forces the discipline of early sermon prep. It's awesome. Um yeah, so um, you know, I think what I wanted to just add to that commentary was that I think that's why familiar hymns matter so much. Songs that people want to sing. Why is it that believers are dying to sing songs that they know, songs they can sing from the heart? Because something beyond words and melody happens deep within us. And it's so important to do those songs. You know, I think that's way more important than learning new songs. Uh, but singing those, I mean, eventually you have to. I mean, all music was once new, uh, is the saying on classical radio around here. But uh, I just think there's something powerful about that. It's a witness. And so, Nick?

SPEAKER_02 19:44

And there's nothing worse than being in worship when you sing a new song and it's a total clunker and nobody's sitting, nobody can figure out how to sing it. Nobody and basically it's just everyone listen to the piano or organ for a couple minutes because it's the song just doesn't work, right? And you're like, God, I'm trying to worship you in this moment, but this song is awful. It happens.

The 144,000

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I want to speak to my own.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Go ahead. Okay, we're learning how to do three here. Emily, you had a comment.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Oh, I was just gonna circle back to what Andy said about the familiar hymns piece. We have a guy at one of the the churches here in Des Moines who a couple of Easters ago suffered a pretty traumatic stroke. Um, and the one part of worship that still kind of lives in his brain is the hymns and the music. And it's because of that, like his wife told me, you know, no matter if I'm in town or I'm not in town, we find somebody to bring him to church because this is a place where he knows he belongs because he has the pieces that are still so familiar to him.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Okay, all right, verses for better save this and take your birth.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Uh it is these who have not defiled themselves with women. So speaking about the 144,000, it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb wherever he goes, they have been redeemed from humankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, they are blameless. So again, if you ask yourself, am I gonna be part of the 144,000? Uh, is that well, the 144,000 are men who have lived a life of abstinence and have never told a lie. So if that doesn't include you, I'm sorry you're not in. You're not part of the 144,000, but there's more people allowed in heaven than just the 144,000. Uh yeah, so um and they follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

Faithful Discipleship

SPEAKER_02 21:48

So, Andy, what does faithful discipleship look like in a world that pressures Christians to compromise?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Nick, I'm so glad you answered that other part. Yeah, historically, I read over verses. Like this, I just skip them, you know, move past them. But uh I'm assigned, uh, it says they are blameless. And I mean, it's it's really so interesting because I mean the answer here, what they're getting at is disciples follow Christ completely. And as Lutherans, we know that we never do. That is, we're in process toward deeper discipleship, but we never arrive. And uh, but what we do do is we anchor our identity in Christ regardless of the personal cost. And that's the way in which we're growing. That's what we're growing toward. Um, so that's faithful discipleship. And in a world that pressures Christians to compromise, I mean, I'm just thinking about that all the time. I I mean, Sunday morning has been taken over for young families by sports. So we have so many kids growing up without ever having a regular worship experience. And what's the number one piece that uh, you know, kind of anchors Christian faith in our young people? But it's it's that experience of going to church. It's the being modeled more than the information that is received. It's that practice of coming before the Lord. And I, you know, I don't know how that's going to be learned and how that's gonna get anchored into our families. Others?

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yeah, I think faithful discipleship is uh is staying close to Jesus when other voices promise an easier path in life. Um, you know, discipleship is not something that we're called to do because it's easy, uh, but it uh but because it's worth it. And um, you know, anything else that calls us and that promises us an easier life is just trying to um deceive us and manipulate us and get us to follow a different path. And yeah, you know, Sunday morning sports, that's a tough one. Uh I I don't know what to do. I mean, I we we we we started a program several years ago that if you're out at the you know at the fields, we'll come to you and we'll bring worship to you prior to worship uh the worship service, but uh that you know nobody everyone's schedule was changing because of tournaments and stuff, and you just couldn't you know, couldn't count on anything. But uh it's tough. It's tough to um, you know, it but we do want our kids in in worship and we, you know, we want them to be part of it and to um to recognize the importance of being there. So uh Emily, do you have anything to add?

SPEAKER_00 24:14

One of the things that we would always talk to are the middle schoolers and the high schoolers um up in Minnesota um about was, you know, to be a Christian means to be set apart. And so sometimes that meant making decisions that weren't the popular decision, even though it was the right decision. And I think about what that means for like adults versus teenagers. I mean, we're talking teenagers like, you know, like not giving into peer pressure and and things like that. But as adults, you know, it's I I think sometimes maybe it looks a little bit different because the pressures are different, but you know, it's it's you know, prioritizing worship, it's prioritizing family time, it's making sure your schedule allows for, you know, a regular meal with your with your kids and stuff like that over, you know, maybe that extra whatever percentage on your paycheck or whatever that is. But um I just think about how adults that we have to also be reminded that, you know, to be a follower of Jesus means to be to be set apart in our in our decisions and the way that we live our lives.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yeah, it's definitely swimming against the current, right? It's it's living outside of the the normal the normal world, you know, the normal way of the world. And and sometimes that's tough, but you know, that's what it means to follow Jesus. Jesus was Jesus didn't come to the world to be part of it. Jesus came to the world to be set apart from it. And so yeah, I think that's an important reminder for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

And it's contentious in churches. Uh I remember one of our leaders once challenged the kids in the group uh uh that they were in. I'm trying to be big here, uh, you know, to prioritize worship on this particular weekend when they had something coming up. And that mom found me and and pretty much busted me, basically sort of mildly yelled at me about one of our leaders telling our kids to prioritize worship. And it's not her job, and she shouldn't be telling our families what to do. And it was, it was kind of like it's like, wow, that's really interesting that not only can you not try to challenge youth to prioritize participation in worship, but that it's bad enough to yell at the senior pastor about this leader. They go to another church now, so I'm not worrying about it. Wasn't over that. Apparently, you don't have to go to church there on Sundays. So, all right, we're gonna keep moving. And

Temptation in Revelation: Babylon the Great

SPEAKER_01 26:33

uh verse eight, that another angel, a second, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great. She has made all the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her prostitution. So, looking forward to hearing an explanation of this one. What is Babylon symbolize in Revelation and how can worldly systems still tempt Christians today? Nick and Emily.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Uh, so I think uh Emily, unless you got something you want to jump in real quick with. Uh, all right, I'll go. Uh to me, Babylon is so we live, we we I think we clearly know that we can live lives that are uh apart from God, that as individuals we can live lives apart from God. To me, Babylon is humanity organized apart from God, right? It's it's it's let's all come together and live apart from apart from the way God wants us to live. And so it's it's organized humanity and it's systems built on pride, greed, corruption, false security. Uh it's every human system that's uh is about power and wealth and pleasure and putting oneself above God. Uh and so Christians are tempted by Babylon because uh success in that system matters more than faithfulness, and we are people who we want to be successful. Success is is tempting for us. It is it it's something we strive for. Uh and so success matters more than faithfulness, comfort matters more than truth, and then politics and culture begin to replace trust in Jesus. So the thing about the Babylon is though it always promises but never fulfills, and it ultimately collapses. And so, you know, the thing what you can look at the history of civilization over the last 2,000 years, many civilizations have risen and fallen, and empires risen and fallen, but but the the people of Christ still remain, the community of Christ still remains. It is the the thing that that binds humanity together um even when uh everything else is failing. So um, so Babylon is tempting, it it draws, tries to draw us in, but uh, you know, for the faithful, uh it's important to remain faithful. So uh any thoughts on that from Andy or or Emily?

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Well, I think the the irony there is the fact that half the things that people are chasing um in place of you know following Christ, you never fully achieve anyway. I mean, it's all all of that stuff is moving. The horizon's always so much farther. And so it's not like you're exchanging one thing for something that will like I'm looking for a quick fix. I mean, you can have one or two um, you know, kind of surface level things, but you're not gonna ever actually achieve whatever you're actually out to achieve anyway, because again, the finish line is always gonna be moving. And so yeah, I just think that's kind of an ironic piece.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Yeah, good point.

Three Systems at Work in the World

SPEAKER_01 29:20

So, Nick, I I just think the systems that are at work in the world are materialism, consumerism, conformity, and idolatry. And I mean, we're fighting against those things all the time. And uh, you know, it's really hard. I mean, the reason that people don't tithe is, you know, they've got bills, and then bills fl uh flow from materialism and consumerism, and in some some cases at least. And I know that uh the life is so expensive, even keeping up, you know, the cultural conformity. You know, just think about kids, you know, who say, Mom, but everybody's doing this, or I need this, or I want this, or they've got the I want these. And there, I mean, it happens in little ways, happens in big ways, or at the store, but mom, I want that. Unless I get that, I'm gonna scream my head off. And um, you know, I mean, and then also idolatry. I mean, think about all of the idols, I mean, political structures, uh, it could be national identity, could be human leaders, anything that challenges the place in our life of the kingdom of God. And that stuff's pulling on people all the time. And we are besieged with information nonstop. I the numbers are amazing to me, the number of messages we get per day, you know, telling us all of those things. It's really uh the kingdom of God is is just it's amazing that um, you know, we have the identity and I mean that we can even see past all of those messages. So we should move on. Uh

What Helped Christians Persevere

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Emily verse 12.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus. Oh, the Yeah, keep going.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

You can ask the question. Okay, so the question is what helps Christians endure faithfully during grief, during temptation, during suffering, during opposition, or spiritual pressure? Nick, you can uh jump in the answer on that one.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

So, Emily, would you like a chance to answer? Yeah, sorry, I didn't have the question in front of me, so thank you, Andy, for saving me. Um so um, and my answer might shock, um, especially Andy. I don't think it'll surprise I don't know how Nick will feel about this. Um, but I would say the answer to all of that is to find your people and to be in a group that can hold you accountable and a group that you can come to um when you know life gets hard and when those things um start to, you know, come up against your faith and against your discipleship. And you know, in a lot of churches that looks like being in a small group. Um something I'm you know working on starting down here that um was flourished pretty well up in Minnesota. And um yeah, just just knowing that you have those those people in your life that you can always turn to that you can go to um who will remind you who you are, whose you are, um, and you know what what you've kind of agreed to live your life to.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Yeah, good answer. Good answer. My my my first thing was community. Um remembering that people around you is a very good answer. Uh I I I also think we remember that we endure because Jesus endured, you know, Jesus doesn't call us or ask us to go through anything that he didn't have to go through when he was here. Um, and so we we are reminded of, you know, he who asks us to pick up our cross and follow him, uh picked up his cross for us. And so uh, you know, he did so in a in a more violent way than than any of us hopefully would ever have to experience. But uh yeah, so so there's community, and then as you know, as Andy talked about just a minute ago, worship uh and then scripture and the promises of God, uh, the suffering never has the final word. Uh so Andy, any thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yeah, the one thing I want to add to that is the power of the Holy Spirit, uh, which I just think, you know, it's it's bigger than human willpower. We always think I can get through, you know, the people that have gone through traumatic events often come out of them saying, I don't know how I got through it. Uh, but if it wasn't for kind of what you name, the people, and then also they name God's presence, the power of the Holy Spirit, uh, they would never have made it through. I think that's a crucial thing. I got some other ones, but I think those are the two big ones. And just a little background of what Emily was talking about is that was one of her jobs here, especially the last half to a third of her time with us was small groups. And your job is to make sure everyone has the opportunity and is encouraged. I loved, I told her once, I said, if you ever preach a sermon and I don't hear the word small group, I'm gonna be very upset. Emily, is that uh accurate?

SPEAKER_00 34:07

I think the term was even if there's a microphone in your hand. And so there is a microphone right here, and I'm still fulfilling my obligation, even though I'm not getting paid anymore to do it. So let the record go.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

That's right. Good job, Emily. Good work. You are on it. All right. That's great. And uh good. So

Comfort and Hope

SPEAKER_01 34:30

we are now, oh man, are we on verse 12 already? Okay, here we go. So verse 13. Verse 13, and I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write this. Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord. Yes, says the Spirit, they will rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them. All right. So, how does this verse offer comfort and hope to Christians who are grieving or facing death? Uh, Nick?

SPEAKER_02 35:00

I think this verse reminds us uh as believers that death is not defeat. That, you know, we nothing, uh nothing can defeat us, that that death has been defeated and that we share in Christ's victory over death. So death is not the end of our story, it's not the end of uh of the believer's story. It's uh it's it's uh death is what I've been saying is death isn't real. Death isn't death is just temporary uh separation. You know, death death is not real for the for Christians. It is just temporary separation, it is uh going from this life to the next. Uh, and so revelation speaks hope into grief by saying that eternal rest, resurrection, and life with Christ await the faithful. And so uh it's it's it's good news for us. It's comfort in the uh in times of grief, and uh it is hope uh for when we're going through difficult times, especially when you're talking about times when you know the end is near for someone we love or for ourselves. Um, you know, there's that's when hope becomes that that's when this gospel message becomes so important, and and and um that's that's where the rubber meets the road, and uh uh and so that's where we find

Their Deeds Will Follow Them

SPEAKER_02 36:07

peace at the end. So uh any other thoughts from either of you?

SPEAKER_00 36:11

That very last part of the line where it says, for their deeds follow them. My first thought was like, so I have to take all my deeds with me. I was really hoping to not have to like be kept awake at night by that stupid thing I said in eighth grade or you know, whatever it is. I was just thinking like, God, heaven can't have that. That's that's a terrible and then you know, obviously reading into it, that's that's not the deeds that they mean. So that's that's exciting. Um and you know, whether or not like you know, they're talking here to like literal, like, you know, martyrs for the cause and the people who are you know suffering for the you know the name of Jesus, or whether we're talking about the people in our lives that, you know, I know Andy, you have a funeral in just like an hour and a half or um someone who, you know, was part of a worship for decades. I don't know what the actual definition of an eon is, but probably close to that. And um just knowing that we have all these um, you know, these these faithful people who are either facing death, dying, just scary things altogether, um, and to hear that, you know, there's there's hope and there and there's light and you know, just reminding them, like you said, Nick, that death isn't defeat and it's not the end.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yeah, I was afraid too of the uh that ending piece. Their deeds will follow them. I thought that we get a new slate, aren't our deeds all forgiven?

SPEAKER_02 37:39

But yeah, the idea I guess there is Isn't there a psalm that says Remember not the deeds of my youth or remember not the sins of my youth? But I I I I think what's important is that that it's not remember our deeds as a way of earning salvation, but as evidence that our lives were lived uh in Christ and not in vain. And um, you know, it's I I I had a thought well recently that so often we think of God watching everything we do with disappointment, with utter disappointment because we're such big failures. But when we see our children living faithfully, when we see our kids do something unprompted and they do like there's so much pride that swells up. And I think that that's the way we should see God. That God, when we do something out of faith, when we do something that's kind to that, God's instead of God looking at us with utter and all you know, total disappointment, that God looks at us like, oh, I'm so excited, you're getting it. I'm so excited, it makes me so happy. There's so much pride and joy because you would do something faithful. Um, and I think that the it's a different way of looking at God and looking at the way we we live. And I think those are the deeds that follow us into eternity. I hope anyway.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

One of my offices, you know, you you walk into a an a new church office and there's artwork on the wall that you might not have chosen. And there is a picture of Jesus that he just looks so disappointed. And I just, you know, working on my sermon, I look over, I'm like, don't look at me right now. I'm it's in progress. And all I can think of is like, I wonder if they even noticed that I switched out for a buddy Jesus picture. Um, and you might not know what that is, he doesn't watch movies, but um on the movie Dogma, there's it's a Jesus who's like thumbs up Jesus, and I was like, I kind of want to switch it out for for one of those because I feel like that might actually better reflect how Jesus feels about.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

George Carlin is the bishop. It was such a great scene with George Carlin as the bishop with buddy Jesus great. Rebranding Christianity. So great.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

So, you know, Nick, if that's the case, I could see myself watching that. I, you know, George Carlin and the office of bishop, I see those things going together. Those are I I could see that that's a natural sink. Uh

The Legacy of Ordinary Faithfulness

SPEAKER_01 39:50

uh just to tie into what uh Emily said a little earlier, you know, the legacy piece. She was talking about one of our organists in that I have a funeral at 11 today. And uh this is an amazing woman. And and she was our organist before I arrived for 25 years, and then she was our substitute organist for another 25. And then when she moved to another community, she was playing the services at the nurse come she was at. And um, you know, the whole legacy thing, that's the sermon that I'm talking about, you know, which is uh she modeled five things evangelism, worship, fellowship, ministry, discipleship. And I mean, people would visit the church and she'd spot them and greet them and give them tours, devoted herself to worship, like I just mentioned, fellowship. She was in small groups, she was in one small group for like, what would it have been, like 60 years. And and then ministry, that small group started something called the Shalom Shop, which is big thrift shop. They do a million bucks in business every year, and they don't have any paid employees, they give it all away. And and then the last one is discipleship. You know, if we were offering a discipleship opportunity, she was in it. I just love that. But at the end of life, it's not having done those things, although they're so important, but it's the promise of eternal life. It's a promise that comes in in Jesus Christ. So I think that is that is just huge, Chad, kind of is what this verse is about. Just a couple other comments on that. Uh, you know, our legacy, what we say. What I love in this podcast, what people may not know, is we see each other on video on the screen as we're recording our voices. And just like in the old days, there have been a couple of times where Emily has tried to slow me down or stop me from saying things that I was saying, because it's so it's so easy uh to go down that path, say the wrong thing. So thank you, Emily, for still trying to uh keep me from getting in trouble with my mouth, which is uh all right. Other comments, Nick?

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Well, I think just to sum it up, uh you know, ordinary faithfulness changes the world.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah, great way to put it. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

I mean, and we're not called to do anything extraordinary, just the ordinary faithfulness stuff and and God works and all that.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

So Nick, I may I may steal that from you for my sermon today. And uh, do I have to give you credit or can I just use it? Ordinary faithfulness, Nick, changes the world.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

If you use it as a at a funeral, you don't have to give me credit, but if you use it on a Sunday, I expect credit.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

That's awesome.

I Went To The Movie Theater

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Oh, hey, by the way, the other thing is I did this is what I want to mention before we're done. I did get into a movie theater this past week. I got into a movie theater and and the owners were there and they know that what?

SPEAKER_03 42:30

I said, Can we get the other thing?

SPEAKER_01 42:31

The owners were there and they know that I Okay, you can. The owners were there and they know that I never go to movies. And so what they said to me is they said, Welcome. This is what a movie theater looks like. And I said, Wow, this is great. Okay, amazing. So you want to guess what movie I saw, Emily? Well, first, did they have the fancy seats with the recliners? They did. I had been there uh another time.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Is this the first time you've had the recliners?

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Second time. Uh years ago, I took Karin to uh a movie many years ago at a different theater, but they had them. But now this theater has them. That's pretty amazing. Although I didn't extend it out, I sat like normally. But you can put your feet out and uh and I did have popcorn. I even had Mountain Dew.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

So did you choose not to be comfortable because you thought that would like play against your piety or something to be too comfortable?

SPEAKER_01 43:22

It was a religious movie, Nick, and it was also free. Uh so uh you probably guys can probably guess now which one I saw.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Now my guesses are out, so never mind.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Oh, they are okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

No, what movie was it, Andy?

SPEAKER_01 43:36

It was the uh the uh theater made it open uh with sponsorship for from the community for all the high school kids that wanted to go to the um uh Great Awakening, the George Whitfield movie. And they invited uh the uh pastors in the community to go as well. So I went and saw it. It's pretty amazing. Pretty. I had no idea he and Ben Franklin had this ongoing connection relationship. It was very Really fascinating to hear him share the faith with Ben Franklin and then also to hear Whitfield kind of confess, confess his own shortfalls, and to see it was very Lutheran in the sense that he learned early on in his faith that he could not find and reach Christ on his own, that it was not his effort, but it was all about what Christ had done for him. And I thought, wow, that to see that, I mean, we know that, we say that, but to see that illustrated, uh, I thought was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

So I had no idea there was a George Whitfield movie. We just went and saw Super Mario Brothers with my daughter.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

I was playing in another theater uh right next to this one, but I went to the the the preacher one.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

And there's a new Star Wars movie coming out this week, Andy. Are you going to see it?

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Uh the lightsaber? I had no idea there's a new one out. My son got a new lightsaber, though. But so what is the story on this Star Wars? Just give me a clue, Nick, so that I know what to tell Peter.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

About the Mandalorian. Say, Pete, Peter, Dad is gonna take you to the movies, we're gonna go see the Mandalorian movie, and it'll be a memorable, he will remember it for the rest of his life. If you go to him and say, Dad, uh, Peter, I want to take you to the movie theater, we're gonna go see the new Star Wars movie. Don't make it his idea, make it your idea, he'll remember it for the rest of his life. If he has to come to you and say, Dad, will you take me to the movies? He won't remember it. But if you go to him and say, We're gonna do this, father and son, Star Wars, let's go, he'll remember the rest of his life. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

All right, Nick, I'm glad you have experience in these things, you know. Emily, what have you got for us?

Reading Books During The Podcast

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Well, I just want to back up real quick because I think I Nick needs to know something that I have actually done for the go-to-the-podcast before I was ever even considered on here. Um, so as I was getting ready to leave uh the church, I well not the church, Cambridge Lutheran, um, I wanted to give kind of like heartfelt like leaving gifts for people. And so I got Andy and his family some some gift cards, and I I got a couple gift cards to the movie theater and a couple gift cards to a local bookstore that's uh beloved. And um I very purposely put the movie gift cards and Andy and Allie's names so they would have to go to a movie so Andy would have something to talk about on the podcast because I keep hearing Nick bring up movies, and Andy goes, I don't know what that is. And so I was trying to help both his cultural awareness and the podcast. I really did my best, Nick, and I'm really sorry.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

See, I I appreciate you trying. I appreciate you trying.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

See, Emily cares, Nick. She cares.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

The problem with going to movies, you gotta put the Bible down. Andy, you gotta sometimes you gotta put the Bible down for a couple hours.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Did you bring a book to the theater?

SPEAKER_01 46:45

That's a good idea. I brought a book to Peter's choir concert last night, but I did not bring a book to the theater. I should have, though. I did bring a pen though, but I didn't have anything to write on. So to take notes.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

You brought a book to Peter's choir concert.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

That's I didn't read it though. I was good and I was sociable and I was talking to people.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

And Karin was like, I need you to know there was an evening where it was myself and I think our children family director, and I think another member of our church were all going to the the barn grill because we're Lutheran and we're supposed to. And we invited Andy to come, and Andy shows up and he brought a book to a table of four people. And we were just like, I thought we were gonna like converse and hang out, and Andy's like, well, this is a case you all get boring. And so I just need you to know that this is not a surprise at all.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

At least you always know where you start. I know these people, Nick.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

So if we want to just do it, if we just want to do an Andy roast, I think I would also like to come onto that podcast episode as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

That's right, we better end fast, Nick, because that just happened here.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

I'm just honored that Andy has never broken out a book and started reading while I was talking on the podcast. That just makes me feel better about myself.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

So I have them ready to go, though, right behind me here, Nick.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

You see

Grace Abides: Revelation Chapter 14

SPEAKER_02 48:00

that. All right, this has been so much fun, Revelation chapter 14. We thank you all for listening. Thank you, Pastor Emily, for joining us today. Thank you, Pastor Andy, for being you and uh always gracing us with your wisdom and and uh uh and faithfulness. And we will see you all next week with Revelation chapter 15.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

All right, thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Thanks for being with us.