Revelation 13 - 666 & Mark of the Beast?

Dragons. Beasts. The mark of the beast. 666.

What is Revelation 13 really talking about?

In today’s episode of the Grace Abides podcast, Nick and Andy tackle one of the most discussed — and misunderstood — chapters in the entire Bible.

• Who is the beast?
• Can people unknowingly worship evil?
• Will there someday be a literal “mark” required to buy or sell?
• Does 666 actually help us identify the Antichrist?
• And what comfort does Revelation give Christians living in fearful times?

Join us as we dig into Revelation 13 and talk about how Christians are called to live faithfully in a world full of deception, fear, and false worship.

This one will definitely get you thinking.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

To tell the difference. The best way to know. Listen to this, folks. The best way to know if something is of God or if it's not of God is to hey everybody. Thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's Word one chapter at a time. We have slogged through 12 chapters of Revelation. That's great. To get to Revelation 13. We're so excited to be in Revelation 13. But before we get there, how are you doing this morning?

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Nick, it's sunny out, and uh it's a beautiful day, and we have another pastor on staff that I am very excited about. He's got 40 plus years experience. He's seen everything. And uh so uh it is it is good to be alive, and I always good to see you, Nick, and uh love recording the podcast. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Is it gonna be 90 there today? I think it's gonna be 90 here today. It's only in 90.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yes, it really you're you're in a t-shirt, and I have on this uh uh sweatshirt, uh, you know, quarter zip deal. I guess it was like it's like cold outside.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

I did go outside for a bit this morning, but I'm in my Mickey Mouse t-shirt this morning. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

So you've been to uh Disney World or Disneyland or whatever it is, and on a Disney cruise, all three.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Oh the holy trinity of Disney World, uh, of Disney, the the Disneyland, Disney World, and uh uh Disney Cruises, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Our kids want to go on a Disney cruise or something like that. I am stalling and proposing other alternatives. And uh, how about we stay in a tent in the woods?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

The thing about a Disney cruise, 24-7, you can go get ice cream. Oh can't you really?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Okay, I I don't know that I'm sold. Uh it was good.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

It was good.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

It was good. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

So you know what occurred to me this morning as I got your email? That you have a link at the bottom of your email straight to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I do. I do.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

You know, I don't know that it's helping us, but that's such a great I why have I never why have you not told me about that? Why have I never thought of that?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Because see, I am a social media and uh digital age uh expert, which is uh uh bearing false witness.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

You continue to impress me. You continue you know what popped up on my Facebook feed this morning? Six years ago today, you and I were recording a podcast about the gospel of Mark, um, and uh the our pictures were up, and we look a little different from six years ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yeah, I'll do a screenshot right now so that uh they can all appreciate. Uh it says Andrew Romstead's studio.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

He's got your own studio. Andy, Andy has his own studio at home, folks.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Oh, that screenshot was terrible. We better pose. Okay, here we go. Um right, one, two, three. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

There we go. All right. Well, Andy, we are in Revelation 13. We're gonna talk about some fun things today, like the mark of the beast and all that other stuff. You wanted to say a little something before we got started about why it's important to study uh uh Revelation 13. What do you got for us?

SPEAKER_00 3:39

You know, I've been struggling with revelation and wondering who is interested in this and why are we interested. And often we're interested for the wrong reasons. And just on Revelation 13 is often the one the kids talked about the most. I mean, Mark of the Beast and 666 and all the rest of it. And so I think it matters to know a little something about this chapter. We don't have to be experts in it, but uh know the historical and symbolic context of it. I mean, the beast from the sea, the beast from the earth. I mean, uh, and the the thing about that is early Christians used apocalyptic language uh to figure out their own reality. Second one, uh, kind of said it already, but Mark the Beast, divine protection. I mean, grace persists is the big idea. And then the third one is figuring out, you know, ethical and uh modern parallels to it. Um, I think that people often do try to say, you know, I see this today. And uh, and what am I talking about? Talking about ethics, talking about economics, talking about loyalty, talking about political figures. I mean, when I was a kid, there were all these, you know, anti-Regan people that thought, oh, he is the, you know, mark of the beast, and they found, you know, 666 and letters and all the rest. And, you know, World War II, it was Hitler and it's Stalin, and, you know, uh, all of these other, all these historical, you know, modern or even ancient, ancient was Nero, uh, figures are um, you know, compared to um 666 and The Mark of the Beasts, people are constantly looking for that in our society today. I don't think that's necessarily bad to be looking for it, but it's it makes reading the actual chapter worthwhile. Nick?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of good stuff we get into today. And um, if you've been following all along and you've been, you know, struggling through some stuff, this is the payoff. This is this is where we get to the stuff that you've heard of that that makes the news, that that where you hear people um you know with prophesying about the future and all that stuff, this is kind of where they're getting that stuff. And so uh we hope that as you listen and as we talk through it, that we do uh a decent enough job uh as you know, as this some a lot of this stuff is is a mystery to us, but uh you know, we think that there's some good stuff that we can share with you today. So we appreciate you listening and uh and and Andy, thank you for giving us that little introduction there. Yeah, we're I mean that uh I'm gonna get to later the the list of a lot of people who they thought could have been the Antichrist and in in the past. And uh, you know, the funny thing about it is every name that's ever been uttered that could be the Antichrist clearly wasn't because we're still here. So um, you know, we're gonna go through it and we're gonna see what uh see what we can come up with. So Andy, you ready to jump right in?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

All right.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

All right, uh, we are in Revelation 13. We're gonna start verses three and four. Verse one says that a beast comes out of the sea. A beast comes out of the sea, it's got ten horns and seven heads. Must be really attractive. Ten horns and seven heads. Uh verse three says, one of its heads seemed to have received a death blow, but its fatal wound had been healed. In amazement, the whole earth followed the beast. They worshiped the dragon, for he had given uh his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast and who can fight for us? That's verses three and four. So they worshipped the dragon who had given his authority to they worship the beast, not knowing they were worshiping the dragon. Uh so the beast, Andy, is popularly known as the Antichrist. Uh description of the beast of the sea connects with images from all the way back from Daniel chapter seven. Uh, and and so as they worship the beast, they worship the dragon as well. Uh so our first question, Andy, do people worship Satan without knowing it?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Lots of different ways to answer this one, Nick. Um I think that the answer is yes. And how do we do that? It'd be by proxy, uh, awe about the wrong things, and counterfeit gods. And uh those are all pretty broad. I think we see them everywhere. Uh, specifically tying it to the text, it links worship of the beast, uh, which could be viewed as a political or worldly power, to worship of the dragon, um, identified elsewhere as Satan. And, you know, when we give our allegiance, when we give our wonder, our worship, so to speak, uh to the beast because of its power, its invincibility, you know, basically what's happening is the source of that power uh is being worshipped, uh, even if we don't realize it. So I think, yes, I mean, all the time we are, you know, worship is maybe an extreme but um uh word, and maybe it's pretty broadly defined. But yeah, we're giving allegiance to things that, you know, may have uh darkness associated with them. Nick.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, so so uh two things that I think I heard you say that I just want to clarify and maybe go down a little bit further. Um I think what I heard you say is that the beast can either be a, you said a political figure, or or so we're talking like an individual or like a government itself, like so.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Like a worldly power of some sort, whether it's an elected government or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah. And then um and and then kind of extrapolating on what you said, a note that I have here, anytime we worship anything that isn't God, anytime we worship anything, are we worshiping Satan? That's kind of the thing that as I've been reading this, um, thinking through that, you know, because you said by proxy, right? By proxy. So so anytime we worship anything that isn't God, are we really worshiping Satan? Is it is it something that Satan has placed in the world that we think, well, it's really, it's not that bad of a thing. It's not that bad of a thing, and yet, you know, has Satan put it there, um, you know, scripture tells us that Satan is the great deceiver, so you know, I don't think Satan cut is going to come at us with pure evil. I think Satan's gonna come at us with something that we at the beginning we think, well, that's not that bad of a thing. And then uh, and so as we you talked about by proxy, you know, are we are we worshiping Satan if if we're worshiping anything other than God? Um so just things that I've kind of been thinking through. Uh, you know, I I think what's important though is that what it tells us here is that it received a death blow. Um and the way to read this through John's words is to say that the the amateur the Antichrist is gonna kind of imitate Jesus in some way, uh, you know, that this person received a death basically died and came back to life. Uh, you know, received a death blow, but it was healed. Um and so I think the world's gonna see, you know, I think what John is saying is that the world's gonna see that this organization or this person or this government or whatever received a death blow and was gone, and then all of a sudden came back, and the world's gonna say, well, if they died and came back like Jesus did, then they must be sent from God. And so it's gonna add tremendously to it to this organization or persons power and fame, and then people are gonna be deceived. I don't think they're gonna see the Antichrist as someone who's pure evil. They're gonna see the Antichrist as people are gonna believe they're sent by God, um, and then they're gonna follow him or or them or whatever. Um, and they're going to be the, you know, they're gonna worship and they're gonna follow, they're gonna worship, they're going to uh and and you know the scary part is is that it's gonna be it's gonna be deception. There's gonna be a lot of deception that goes along with it.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

So Nick, uh nicely put. Uh by the way, I want to compliment you for your active listening, you two different ways. He said, What I hear you saying is, and if I'm understanding you correctly, Nick, you are a trained pastor. Uh very nicely done. I mean, you must have uh uh done well at seminary, because uh they tried to and you captured the essence of what I was saying uh pretty well.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Uh and I repackaged it and I put it in my own words, and uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Well done. Um my thought on this too is um, yeah, you're right. We can be, if we really dig in, uh we can uh be sort of, you know, to use the word again, worshiping stuff that has sources or allegiance or you know, darkness in it. But you know, that's the problem with that is you can write off anything then, too. I mean, often the church has become legalistic and the church has become um, how do I put it, just sort of narrow-minded when we uh, you know, reject anything that may not have a pure source, uh, you know, that might just not be perfect in every way. And often we see that with media, often we see that uh in all kinds of places, that wow, you know, if it's not purely biblical, it has no value. And that's been an ongoing question. And in many um denominations, you know, that have become, you know, pretty narrow-minded and pretty narrow in their interpretation of the Bible have developed right out of uh that sort of thinking that we are gonna reject the world, we're gonna reject anything that is influenced by the world, we're gonna reject. I mean, when I was uh in high school, it was popular music, you know, and uh it was words, and uh it was interesting in media. We did a series about a decade ago, I think it was uh uh what was it, what the Bible says about Harry Potter, I think it was. We had somebody quit the church because we had actually mentioned Harry Potter. And uh I thought that was uh pretty fascinating. Now, Nick, I know you're not a Harry Potter fan. Lord of the Rings is much, much better. Uh, so I'll give you credit for that. And Lord of the Rings is much more biblical. Uh, but it's interesting. I mean, there's a balancing act here in how we interpret concepts like this, is kind of what I'm getting at. It's really easy, and the Christian church has done it over the years to basically reject anything or everything in the world. Nick.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Yeah, but I think that's the same attitude that caused the first century folks to reject Jesus, isn't it? Because he didn't he didn't look and sound like what they were expecting. He didn't say the things, he didn't he didn't have the vision they were expecting the Messiah to have. Uh, and so that's kind of how they why they rejected Jesus. And so, you know, Caroline, my daughter, uh, goes to a private school, uh, a Christian school, and some of the kids at her school aren't allowed to read Carrie Potter or Watch Harry Potter. And um, you know, and so to me, I think there's goodness in a lot of there's a lot of, and I've done this before. If you if you're listening to this podcast and you go back several years, there's a lot of episodes I've done about pop culture theology, about the ways in which how the things in in our culture today can teach us about God. It can help open up our understanding. Uh, because I think there is goodness to a lot of the things that are being that's being created. I don't think we need to reject it, but I think there are parts of things that we should reject. There's parts of things that we should say, that doesn't have a lot of value for me or for my family. Uh, and yet there's some good good out there too. Uh I just think that, you know, as we think about creativity and the way people's minds work, uh I think a lot of the the source of creativity is the spirit. And and I think there's a lot of good in that, and it and it teaches us and it helps us to come to a better under deeper understanding of what it means to be God's people today uh in this time and in this place. And so I I don't think we reject it all. But if if we have that attitude of rejecting everything, I think that's the same kind of attitude they had in the first century that caused them to reject Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Beautifully put, Nick. Absolutely. Moving on to verses seven to eight, the beast was allowed to wage war on the saints and to conquer them. He was given authority over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it. Everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that was slaughtered. So, Nick, we have the foundation of the world. And uh, why do you think it's significant that God's plan of redemption was set in place before he even created the beings who would be redeemed? That's like, wow, okay. I'm I'm interested in your answer, Nick.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

I love that. I just love the the phrase before the foundation of the world because it just it tells us that God knew. God knew that we were gonna fail, God knew that we were gonna be sinners, and God had a plan for that before God even started creating. Before God even started creating the world, God had a plan for it. So the work of Jesus, 1 Peter chapter 1, verse 20 tells us the work of Jesus was ordained before the foundation of the world. So this is all part of God's plan. So when we look at the fall of man in Genesis chapter 3 and we blame Adam and Eve, well, someone had to fall because God knew it was going to happen, right? So, so stop blaming Adam and Eve, right? Stop blaming. It was God knew this was gonna happen, and uh uh it was all preordained. Uh so and then in Ephesians 1 it says, God chose the redeemed before the foundation of the world. God chose you before the foundation of the world, before God created earth, before God started that, God had you in mind, God knew uh you were gonna be like you and that you were gonna be loved and that you were gonna be saved and that you were gonna uh have faith and all of those things. And that's good news. That's exciting news to know that God has known me that long. Uh I I I remember the day we found out that my wife was pregnant, and and it was like this idea that you know, I'm we're gonna a new life is coming into the world, and I'm gonna be a father. And it's like, you know, I loved my child long before she ever came into the world, you know, that going to the sonograms and all those things and the feeling her kick and all that. It was so exciting. I, you know, I I before she was born, I loved the idea of her. And and and I think we as parents can all understand that. And that's the that's what we we're saying here is that God before you were created, God loved the idea of you before God even loved and knew you, because God always knew and loved you. Uh, and I think that's that's really powerful. Uh and then Revelation 17 tells us that the names, our names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, before God created, our names are written down and said, You are going to be someone who has eternal life. Which leads to the bigger question, right? The one hanging above us that we all want to know. Why would God decide before the creating the earth that there are names not written in the book of life, right? So that's that's kind of where that question leads. But but I think so often, Andy, so often, scripture says these things, and and and we get this idea that that is true, like before the foundation of the earth, your name is written in the book of life, and our human mind immediately goes to the inverse and has a asks a question about the inverse, right? So often we do that. If this means that, then what about the other thing? And and I think that uh for God's people, we should we should pause before we do that. Just accept the truth as to what scripture is saying, and we don't need to ask the inverse because God clearly has a plan for that, and uh you and I, just because God hasn't shared it with you and I doesn't mean that God doesn't have a plan that includes good and love for those people too. So what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Nick, you preemptively got my question. I was gonna ask you, is that fair that uh some are in and some are out and God determined it before anyone was even born? And no chance at all. I mean, I've had long conversations in church about this, and I referenced kind of the idea of this passage, you know, that uh God chooses us, we don't choose God. I had that as a big portion of my sermon on Sunday, and someone else said, yeah, our Bible study debates that all the time, you know, and and often the language used in the culture uh is Calvinism, you mean God is sovereign, made all those decisions in advance, versus Armenianism, Arminianism, which is that it's entirely up to you, it's your choice. And neither of those really reflect kind of the Lutheran point of view. Uh, but those are the two predominant theological views at work in the culture. And we have churches that, you know, preach both in this community. Uh to back up a little bit, um, you know, God's plan of redemption was set in place. I mean, it proves that God wasn't caught off guard, uh, that, you know, there's a plan behind everything, that redemption, being redeemed by God, is rooted in grace, uh, not our performance. There's good news there. And uh it also, as we're talking about the beast, whether that's symbolic or real or what that will look like, uh, this passage is providing security against uh that beast. But yeah, the uh book of life, uh, it's pretty interesting. Um uh it's you know, it's kind of the heavenly counterpart to the mark of the beast, and it signifies who is owned by God. But as you already pointed out, Nick, the counterpart to that, who is not. So um, Nick, how do we know if our uh name is in the book of life? I assume that's through faith in Christ, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Through faith in Christ, through the work of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

So I would say, I would say that I think the writers of Scripture were very concerned about making sure that the people who were who were undergoing persecution uh could be comforted by the fact that their name was written in the book of life and that God has chosen them. And I don't know that the writers of Scripture were ever really too concerned about addressing what about the other people? What about the people who we don't see uh as faithful? Um, and so I don't think we need to extrapolate just because X just because it means this for me, it must mean the opposite for someone else. If you really want to spend an hour going down, I have a podcast on this podcast from a couple years ago called Heaven and Hell, and there's a whole bunch of scriptures that I've gone through that you know I'm happy to go through again if you like. Uh, but it when you look at like Matthew 25, the judgment of the nations, people are being saved for their good works, not for their faith in Jesus. Uh and so you have the chosen, you have the people who who got who whose names are written in the book of life, and then you know, there's the next step is who's been good and who's been bad. And so um it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone else is excluded. Uh and so it's you know there is a lot of there's a the Bible is a really long book, Andy, and it is I was thinking about this the other day. The Bible is the perfect length book because no Nobody can claim to understand all of it because it's so long, and you can never get to a point where you feel like you're done and you know it all. You just keep studying it because it's so it there's so much in there, and there's so much that we can talk about, talk through. Uh, we can spend we you and I could spend a month doing a podcast on one verse. And so, you know, it it's just a there's a lot in there, and uh, you know, don't don't try and put God in a box and say that, well, I'm saved, that means other people aren't. So uh but it but this is good news for you and for me that prior to the foundation of the world, our names have been written in the book of life. How do we know this? Because we have faith that was given to us by the Holy Spirit, and we have a living hope inside of us that tells us that everything is going to be put back together in eternity uh because God is God and because God has chosen us doesn't mean God hasn't chosen others. So that's what I say.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

You know, the the movement in society, we were talking about basically who's saved, who isn't, the book of life, etc. The movement in society is really universalism. And it's interesting that the scripture, the primary interpretation of scripture is certainly not universalism, universalism being defined as all being saved. And uh I remember uh, you know, this phrase I heard years ago: universalism is the pious hope of the faithful. In other words, people of faith, you know, earnestly hope and desire that everyone is saved. Uh and but again, it's outside of our understanding and also the biblical witness uh is that we're saved by the grace of God, which comes through faith alone and not by our own works or merit. And the book of life is kind of an explanation of that. I used to be, Nick, the problem child in seminary classes. And I would, there'd be these questions like we're talking about, just staring at us, and no one would ask them. And I'd raise my hand and uh I'd say, I want to know, how do you, how do you know for sure if you're in or if you're out? And um, you know, Nick, is the podcast that you did on this entitled Heaven or Hell, where will you spend eternity? It was kind of that's often how these things are kind of poor trade. Need to rebrand it. And I remember the prop saying, hey, this is this is your job to proclaim the grace of God through the word of God and to baptize and invite people into the kingdom. Let God sort it all out. And I think that's uh some different language for what you're saying, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yeah, so what I said was that heaven is God heaven is God's party.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Heaven is God's eternal party, and the invitation list is solely up to God. We don't get to decide who's in, we don't get to decide who's out. We proclaim the promises of God, um, and we trust that when we baptize and when we uh when we tell people their sins are forgiven, that they truly are, when we tell people that God is with them, that God truly is, and that when we tell people that they have civilization, that they do, because uh those are that's what scripture tells us. And so, but it's God's invitational so I don't get to decide who gets in and who doesn't. I just trust that God is merciful and loving.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

One note on that, though, you know, it is God's invitation, but you know, there's that wonderful parable Jesus told about the invites go out, and you know, a huge number of the people invited don't show up. And and so the master sends his servants out into the highways and the byways. That's the old translation of it. The back roads, you know, and get all of it, just invite everyone in the banquet to the banquet because the master wants to see the banquet full and uh beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

So well, and the so that's where Rob Bell comes in with the the gates to hell. There are people in hell. There is a hell, there are people there, and the people who are there are the people who chose to be there. Uh, and that the gates to hell are locked on the inside. It's the people who rejected Jesus in life and and God is a loving God and will allow people to reject him throughout all of eternity. And so um, you know, it's the people who have turned down the invitation, who are those those who aren't and didn't get in.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

You know, I called up Rob Bell once and uh he didn't answer, of course. No, but he let he called me back and and left a voicemail.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

No way, he called you back, he did.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

And I think I I saved that voicemail for years and years. I just thought it was pretty hysterical. And he ended his voicemail by saying, and yes, this is Rob. Why did you call him? Oh, it had something to do with uh this goes back like 12, 15 years. He'd done a big presentation in uh in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and I had gone out to see a friend of mine out there, and he and I went to see it. He was on preaching, it was really good. It was like poets and preachers and some other uh and um uh so I, you know, I I have questions and and and I'm have interest in things, and I called him up about something. I don't even remember the details on it, and he called me back. I I think it's cooler that I actually got the voicemail as opposed to actually having taken his call.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Did you see it coming through? Like Rob Bell, yeah, some voicemail.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

I'll skip that. Yeah, no, I he has a podcast too. I catch it. It's called the Rob Cast. We're promoing uh other podcasts here, and occasionally I've caught it, but he promos ours, doesn't he? Uh absolutely, I'm sure he does.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

My old friend Andy. All right, verses 16 and 17. There's another beast, Andy. So we got a beast that comes out of the sea. Now this one comes out of the earth, and this one is subordinate to the first. So the one that comes out of the earth has to do with the one who comes out of the sea, says. So verse 16. Also, it causes this is the beast that comes out of the earth, both great and small, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be given a brand on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell who does not have the brand that is the name of the beast or the number for its name. So, Andy, under the government of the beast and his associates, all will be given a mark. It's either going to be on our right hand or our forehead, and without it, no one's gonna be able to buy or sell. And we we can see that this is practical and conceivable, and you know, this could be done, and it might make things easier. Uh, the technology to give people a mark enables them to buy, sell in the electronic economy that is available. I mean, you and I, yeah I I assume you have credit and debit cards with computer chips in them. They could just slide that thing right in our right hand and make it a whole lot easier. We don't need imagine you don't even need to carry a wallet anymore, right? Because you could have like your driver's license attached to the thing, you'd have a passport attached to the thing, you'd have everything you need to attach to that thing. You don't even need to carry a wallet. You wouldn't even need pockets anymore, Andy. Except for your for your phone, maybe. Uh so do you ever think we'll need a mark to buy or sell things? And is a mark on our foreheads significant?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

You know, that whole idea I hate of just everything being through like a chip, uh, you're right. It's totally possible. And I mean, you know, we have credit cards that we just debit cards, actually. We run we follow Financial Peace, so we have debit cards. Uh, but uh we uh, you know, just tap it. Actually, for the record, I don't even know if debit cards are allowed on financial peace. Um, but we tap it. Is that is that why you have no airline miles, Andy? Yes, it is. You could fly anywhere. And uh anytime uh I think actually, truth be told, we do have a credit card. We have it just on auto payoff. Uh but yeah, you're right. You can get airline miles if you or Nick can go interesting places like uh Minneapolis in winter, which is like just fantastic. And we loved having you guys come.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

And there was no snow. Come to Minneapolis in winter, and there's no snow.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

There's no snow. And what happened just for the record, a month or so later in Dallas or Fort Worth, where you live, not Dallas, uh, you had snow.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

We had snow. It came, it came to see, we came to see it, it wasn't home, so it came. It's like Rob Bell. It called us back. It came, it came to see us.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

So, Nick, I should really answer the question here. Um a couple of thoughts came to mind. I mean, this has been real in, you know, the past hundred years or so. I mean, think about Nazi Germany, where people of Jewish descent had the star of David that had to be worn, sewn into their clothing. And it was basically this mark that was branding someone in the concentration camps. And I think I I think I saw one once. I know I've seen lots and lots of pictures of them, but people had in their arm, you know, tattoos of, you know, their number. I mean, it's this is scary stuff. And, you know, in the from the biblical context, Mark of the Beast is a system of total economic and spiritual allegiance. You're not allowed unless you are, you know, paying allegiance. And um theologians kind of interpret this not as necessarily a physical object, but just a system. And whether it's a technological device, microchip, whatever, or a social, you know, kind of a credit card system, uh, the warning is about a future where participating in the economy means compromising one's core values or faith to a centralized, corrupt authority. And I mean, that's real in our society today. I was thinking of this as I was reading the news this morning, and there was a story about uh a guy, uh retired pastor, he's like 78, who in Ireland uh was outside a hospital and he read um, you know, John 3.16 out loud. Now, what does that mean? Was he preaching, you know, street preaching, doing I, you know, I didn't take the time to dig much deeper into it, but I think his name was Clive Johnson or something. I know nothing about him, by the way. And but it was really interesting. They put him on trial for uh, and he was convicted of reading John 3.16 on the street outside a hospital. And so the 78-year-old retired preacher is now, he said, finishing his life with a criminal record. But it is really interesting how government will impinge itself onto, you know, societal life. And we in the United States enjoy this incredible uh religious freedom that is just not known in other parts of the world. I met with a missionary twice uh last week, uh, who's doing incredible work in a country that I can't name. And uh, but I mean the government, you know, is is constantly watching him, and nothing that he does can be put on social media. And it's pretty, pretty interesting. Uh, Nick?

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yeah, and the scary part is that if we do go to this microchip thing, it's not just all our information. There's a GPS sensor on there that they could always know where we are. And so what do we do if they say this you need this, right? Imagine imagine being told that you have to do this and to be part of the to be part of the economy, to be part of the I mean, I don't know about you, but I'd be looking for somewhere to move.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Yeah, absolutely. It's you know, in literature, big brother is kind of the notion of this, the the you know, the the concept. And uh big brother is watching you is kind of the big idea. Yeah, where can you move to escape this? In Norway, I think it was a couple of decades ago when I was over there, and the new thing over there then was boxes on the uh highways and some of the other roads that would record your speed. And if you were above a certain speed limit, there was some way they would snap a picture of your license plate and they would send you a ticket. And it was kind of like uh a friend of mine who's living over there, he goes, you know, in the he didn't think in the United States that would ever sell uh because it's basically this, you know, you know, disembodied authority rendering judgment. And uh Big Brother is just keeping an eye on you.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

So we have that when people drive into our town, the town we live in. Do they have that? They have it where they check license plates and they will come and get you if you have an outstanding warrant.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Okay, okay. So that's a step in that direction.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Okay, wow, wow But they had it here in Texas where they had cameras on on uh on lights, and if you ran a red light, they would send you a ticket, and then they fought it and they overturned it. So um yeah, I I got one ticket and I went and fought it, and the guy goes, Well, as I'm looking here, it doesn't show that all four tires came to a stop. Oh, really? Well, three of them. Well to could maybe three of them can we I mean it's like yeah, but I was like that's great. So anyway, by the way, I I've worked as a police chaplain and they're like, okay, you can go. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Oh, that'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

It's wild. It's just wild. But so the mark of the beast, uh to buy things or sell things. So often, Andy, so often we all go to technology, but what if it's not technology at all? What if it's something else? What if it's something we're not even thinking about? And why is it significant that it goes on our forehead? Because we have another mark on our forehead. We have the mark of Jesus on our forehead from our baptism. And I had a baptism this Sunday, a little baby, it was so great. Baptisms are the best, but we always place up the mark the the cross on our forehead to so that we and everyone wouldn't just we belong to Jesus. We belong to Jesus, and it doesn't matter what other mark is going to go on there, nothing is going to take away the fact that we belong to Jesus. And I think that's what's significant here is that um if they ever come out and you feel like you have to just make sure it's on your left hand, not your right hand, because Revelation says it's their right hand, so left hand maybe it's I don't know. I don't know. But you have the mark of Jesus on you. Nothing can ever take that away. Nothing can ever separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Uh so if we are deceived, it doesn't mean that we have no hope anymore. I think that's what's important here.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Nick, by the way, we had a couple of Sundays ago, we had three baptisms at one service, and I was doing the baptisms and you know, doing the you've been sealed by the Holy Spirit and marked by the cross of Christ forever, and I come with water and do that. And this one little kid who's like a toddler, a little older, as I'm reaching to do the cross, he's screaming at me, no, no. And he was like completely what I was thinking about, okay, is this rejecting your baptism? And at what age can you reject your baptism? And is is is that even theologically possible? And and uh it was pretty fascinating. And then, you know, at our first communion service, we had uh, this was uh uh I think what March, February, something like we had uh had this little tiny kid who comes up and demands the sacrament. And he had not prepared, he was like three, and he would not leave up front until he got the bread and the wine. And uh I made a bit of a mistake. Uh I did not give him the bread and the wine. I withheld the sacrament because he had not prepared, which is like, you know, legally kind of our policy, but from a uh PR point of view, it was just absolutely terrible. And uh and and afterward, a retired pastor from our church, he's fabulous. He comes after, he goes, give him some Jesus. Come on. And it was just crazy. So I was totally branded as the mean old school pastor who is withholding the sacrament, except from those who have prepared. Nick?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

That's pretty rough. I I have a policy. Anyone who opens their hand gets it. Really? Yes. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

So, Nick, we should be more like you.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Uh is anyone ever truly ready to receive the sacrament, though?

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Okay. Um probably not, but you know the passage, we might interpret it differently about those who have not prepared to receive the sacrament, but uh that's a different uh podcast as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

So if you're listening to this and you're wondering and you're thinking like I might want to move to Cambridge, Minnesota, or I might want to move to South Lake, Texas just to go to a Lutheran church there, which and you're trying to decide which one is right for you. South Lake, Texas. You open your hand, we put something in it.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

And and you get it like uh every week, too, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Every week. You don't do it every week?

SPEAKER_00 38:05

No, no. Uh all right, we should continue on in this.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Andy, re rest comfortably knowing that no one is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Okay. Uh verse 18. Uh, this calls for wisdom, Nick. Uh uh let anyone with understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number for a person. Its number is 666. So his number is 666. Does knowing this number, Nick, help us figure out who the Antichrist is?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

This calls for wisdom, Andy. I think it's wisdom we don't have. Okay. I think it's I mean, no, I'm gonna say no. Um does this number help us figure out who the Antichrist is? No, it doesn't help us figure out who the Antichrist is. The original readers might, they might have known what this meant, but we don't. I mean, I I'm gonna give you some ideas of what it might have meant, but I don't know if any of this is true. So, okay. So back then, first century, common thing in the ancient world was that all letters had a numerical value that went with them. And so A would equal one, B would equal two, C would equal three, D four, uh so forth. Basically kind of like this. For example, there's graffiti found in the room at uh the ruins of Pompeii that read, I love her, whose number is five four five. And so it's like a way of talking about somebody in code. And so what does 666 mean? What so if we do that, there's a this opinion that it could mean that this is referring to Nero, right? And if you put Nero's uh Emperor Nero with that, that but you you you really kind of have to do some work to make it fit. Uh I read that it it takes a variant spelling of the Greek form of a Latin name transliterated into Hebrew character uh to make it work. So it could be referring to Nero, but um this method has uh has meant that that throughout the last 2,000 years, people have been trying to figure out what it means. And so some have thought that it they have made it work so that it talks about the Pope or John Knox or Martin Luther or Napoleon or Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin or Ronald Reagan, Ronald Wilson Reagan, six letters, six letters, six letters, and so forth. Uh but I think uh I think people are afraid of this number. I I'm I remember uh people saying to me, why do why is there a hymn 666 in the hymnal? Why don't we just go from 665 to 667 if 666 is uh is the number of the beast? Do we know what 666 means? Is there anyone who knows today with without certain without the for certain what it means? And I would say no, they don't. I I've also heard this. Seven is the number of God, right? Seven is the number of perfect perfectionists, the number of God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So the number of God is seven seven seven. This is a Chad Bird thing that I read recently. So so six, six, six is basically the number of humanity. It's it it's just a play on the seven seven seven of God from um and it talks about our imperfectness and and all the th the ways in which we fail, and so six, six, six is the number of imperfection, or seven, seven, seven is the number of perfection. Um but here's here I think what the this whole thing is leading to. It's trying to help us figure out who the Antichrist is going to be. That's all this number is. It's trying to help us figure out who the Antichrist is going to be. Nobody's gonna go to hell because the number 666, right? It's just, you know, people may use that as like uh to associate themselves with the Antichrist, whatever. Uh, but when the Antichrist comes, I I think that most of us think that it's gonna come in like this this demon child, like like a villain from a horror movie. But I think it's probably gonna be someone whose evil is only seen after it rises to power, right? It's going to it's going to be appealing to us, and it's going to it's going to have enough whatever Antichrist we're talking about, there's going to be enough good about it to make us think that uh uh this might be this person might be sent from God. And so there's it's gonna be hard for it. We're gonna be we're gonna whoever is come is gonna try to deceive us. Um and and so it's there the I I think that there's not gonna be an obvious difference for us, and we're gonna have to figure it out through prayer. But but the best way to tell the difference, the best way to know listen to this, folks. The best way to know if something is of God or if it's not of God is to know God. It's to be familiar with Jesus, to know Jesus well enough to say that look that is trying to look like Jesus, but that isn't Jesus. And that's the main point. If you know who Jesus is, if you know what scripture tells us about Jesus, it's really hard, it's really easy to see in the world that which is uh uh not of God. And so read your Bibles, people, go to Bible studies, get to know Jesus, and you're not going to be deceived. And then the number 666 doesn't even matter. So, Andy, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Nick, you covered it all. That's really good. I think for the intro to this uh podcast, we should go. The answer is, and then I'll just cut it off right there. So they have to get to the very end. Um, you know, you you covered this, but in uh summary, I mean the short, three short ways, kind of three, a summary of how people have tried to discover who the Antichrist might be is code. You mentioned Nero, uh symbolic, like numerology, and then mark of allegiance, meaning uh counterfeit seal. Uh so you unpacked all of those. I won't need to go deeper into those. But yeah, people are always looking. Uh, and uh you're right, there is sort of a uh concern about the number 666. I've asked that same question about the hymn book. It's interesting they have a hymn. I don't want my hymn to be 666. Nick, you write hymns though, actually. So you might be more concerned. I do not write hymns.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Uh but I think I wrote a hymn. Did I write a hymn?

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Will you sing it for us now?

SPEAKER_01 43:49

I have I don't remember it at all.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Oh, you don't. I'm sorry. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Uh no, that's that's funny that you said that. I I totally forgot. I totally forgot that I wrote To him, but um yeah, it no, it that was years ago. I don't remember it at all.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

All right. And you didn't you do like original hymnity, your people on your team? Liturgy. Liturgy. That's what it was. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah. And and and the just so you know, if you ever ask the question, will you sing that for us? The answer is always gonna be no. Because I have too much respect for your ears.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

That's awesome. I was in a planning meeting the other day, they were saying, What's that hymn? And how does that go? How does that go? And I knew it, and I thought I'm not gonna sing it, but I think I knew it. I finally got so sick of the conversation, I said, Listen, it goes like this. And they were all like, Oh yeah, they they did some Nick. The good news is they were able to figure out what the melody was based on the notes that I sang, but I did not sing very many, but that's a win.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

That's great. You should write you should try writing one now. I can't believe you remember that I wrote a hymn. That happened once many years ago, and I don't even remember what it was. I think I did it as a joke.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

I am, Nick, I'm just that good. And uh, you know, all of the ways that you are superior to me, you know, I feel like I need to catch up if I feel inadequate.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

I need to put that on my resume that I've written a hymn, that I've written a liturgy, that I mean, I'm I'm like, I've got I've got all the stuff in my bag, I've got all the quivers.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

By the way, my daughter had an opportunity to sing a solo. Uh. Oh, yeah. And boy, I tell you, I had if I was doing that, I would be so nervous and I'd be just fixated on it, and I'd be telling everybody how nervous it was, and I'd be thinking, and you know, she just said, Yeah, I got a solo. And she got up and she just nailed it. And I was just great. Just uh really impressed by that. And I like the way that I talked with the director about it a little bit. And you know, he said he doesn't give people solos, he gives people the opportunity to do a solo. And it's open to whoever would like it. And uh it was really, really uh interesting, uh helpful conversation about uh those things. Maybe that's off topic a bit, but uh the he said that when I thanked him for giving her the opportunity, not for picking her to do a solo, but for giving her the opportunity to compete for the solo, he appreciated that language.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Um the the the song she sung was about dancing.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Is dancing allowed in the Romsted house? I mean I mean Nick, you know that I am one step away from full-on Satan worship, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 46:26

That's right. I'm a you know that I'm a big time dancer, Nick. Uh that is the family joke that I do not dance. Allie loves to dance, so Karn would have gotten that from Allie. I am not, and uh the other joke is that my mother was a fantastic singer, and Allie jokes about how she doesn't sing much. So uh uh, you know, different kids get different uh, you know, gift sets from different parts of the family.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

I think Andy's got some moves. He's hiding from us, he's hiding from us, he's holding out on us.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Yeah, that would that would be very nice. Uh I'm kidding. So, um Revelation 13. Thank you, Nick. See you soon.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Everyone, take care.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Thanks for being with us.