Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Join Pastors Nick Billardello and Andy Romstad as they teach the Christian faith in a relevant and relatable way. They also talks about other stuff.
Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Revelation 12 - Dragons & Cats, Good v. Evil
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Listen in as Nick and Andy dive into Revelation 12 — one of the most dramatic and mysterious chapters in the Bible.
+ But first, do cats go to heaven? Nick sheds light on the topic.
+ From the terrifying dragon who wages war against God’s people to the victorious child who rules the nations, this episode explores the cosmic battle between good and evil.
+ Along the way, we tackle one of the most important questions Christians can ask: What does it mean for Christians to overcome evil through Jesus rather than through worldly power or force?
+ Join us as we unpack the symbolism, the hope, and the victory of Christ found in one of Revelation’s most unforgettable visions.
That's the main message of Revelation. Revelation was written to a church that was being persecuted and people were suffering, and this is good news for them. It was meant to comfort them, and we're trying to we're trying to make really difficult things, you know, really strange things and difficult verses we're trying to come up with what does this mean for us today? Well, well, some of it I think was written for people 2,000 years ago and anyone since who has been uh oppressed or suffered. And uh um and but I think here's the main lesson is that there's no persecution, no suffering, nothing that can happen, nothing that the dragon or the beast or anything can do to you that can separate God's people from the victory already won in Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_01So there I've got feeling a little preachy, but that's where I am. Amen, Nick.
SPEAKER_02Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's Word one chapter at a time. Hey Andy, how are you on this beautiful Wednesday morning? We got a little bit of a light thunderstorm going on here in Texas. What's uh what's life like up in Minnesota this morning?
SPEAKER_00Nick, it warmed up over the past couple of weeks a lot, but now it's like freeze warning again, and it's it's kind of overcast and cloudy and uh kind of uh mopy weather.
SPEAKER_02So freeze warning in May. Andy, you do not have to put yourself through this. You do not have to put there are other places to live. You do not have to put yourself through this.
SPEAKER_00I was talking to somebody this week who one of their kids is moving to uh moving south. They they've just had enough. I've uh that I've seen that happen often where uh the weather will drive them away. My dad used to say, uh, never choose where to live based on the weather. Uh I don't know if that was just an excuse to live in Minnesota or if he was serious about that. I don't know. Nick, I would love it's always fantastic hospitality in South Lake. So what I should really be doing is scheduling regular visits to the Bill Ardello household.
SPEAKER_02We would love that. You are welcome anytime. And my people at Abiding Grace absolutely adore you. Uh that church on church after after worship on Sunday, someone said, we just love Andy so much. And that because we didn't record a podcast last week and they're like, we missed the podcast, we missed Andy. And I'm like, well, yeah, I missed him too. I mean, just I love the guy. Uh but uh, you know, I think they they really like you. I don't think the people in Cambridge truly understand how great they have it to have you as their pastor. Or maybe they do, I don't know, but our people just really like you.
SPEAKER_00I think Nick, it here it's the exact opposite of that. We love Nick. Nick is fantastic, and you you are just so good, and I am not making that up. That's so funny. That is great. Well, I mean, that's a good thing. I mean, we should uh what was someone in your church was saying that we should like switch pulpits for a week sometime. I don't know. I wouldn't know what to do for a week in South Lake. I'd just enjoy the weather and the barbecue.
SPEAKER_02Would I mean by the Oh, someone did say to me, so we want to do a uh trip with Andy and his church. So we need to put together a trip with Cambridge Lutheran Church, Abiding Grace Lutheran Church, Nick and Andy leading the churches to Germany in the footsteps of Luther or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Well, it would be pretty fun. We we could look into that.
SPEAKER_02I mean Absolutely. We need to do it. So since we've last met, we didn't we didn't record a podcast last week, and I'll tell you why my cat got sick and we had to put my cat to sleep. And it was really sad. Um and it was throughout the whole process of my wife being on it, it was just an anyway. So, Andy, first question for you today. Cats go to heaven, don't they?
SPEAKER_00You just know my love for cats. Vic, first, uh my condolences. Losing a family pet is traumatic. And uh, my wife mentioned the other day, she is still sad one of our cats didn't come home about six months ago now. And in this area, there have been cats that go away for up to a year and then suddenly show up. And there have been cats that climb into the back of vehicles or pickups and no one knows, and uh eventually they find their way back. So we don't know the story on our cat here, but uh my condolences to you on having lost a family pet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But you do ask the question. Cats go to heaven, right?
SPEAKER_00Should not answer the question. That's great. We'll say this is what we're gonna say. I'm gonna say the pastoral care answer is yes. If you ask me for a biblical verse, I I don't I don't have one. I'm assuming you do, though, Nick. Uh uh, you're an animal guy. I mean, I've met your dogs, they were very nice to me. They were very welcoming.
SPEAKER_02So they were very excited to see you. They're very excited to see anybody, though. So okay. That's great. You are special, but they uh I think there's a verse in uh several verses in Revelation that we're gonna get to that talk about God restoring all of creation. Okay.
SPEAKER_00All of creation.
SPEAKER_02Uh that includes, you know, animals and and pets. And I think that yeah, I think heaven has has pets, you know, cats and dogs and you know, fish or whatever else. I don't know. Uh, but but if you ever read a book about the Tony Jones wrote a book about the postmodern church, he's like, what about all the chickens? What about all the billions of chickens that are, you know, and and all the the cows and I don't know, but but my heaven is going to include my pets. So yeah, they're gonna yes, they're gonna be there.
SPEAKER_00Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02They're gonna be there, Andy. Also, we haven't talked about the NFL draft happened two weeks ago. Oh man, week and a half ago. How are you feeling uh your Minnesota Vikings?
SPEAKER_00I loved the picks that they had, and then uh they picked just a ton of defense, and then they got after the draft, they picked up some good running backs. Uh, but they only got graded with a B minus on the draft. So um, I don't know. I mean, but they're gonna cause trouble for uh your quarterback, uh Jared Goff. And I mean, we got this absolutely incredible linebacker. We got the one or two absolutely incredible defensive linemen to go with the people that we already have. We got safeties. Uh it, I mean, I was wondering what what do they think about the defense? They're just drafting heavy, heavy, heavy defense. So we want to cause trouble for the Lions, Nick. That's one of our team goals. So what about you?
SPEAKER_02Well, the Lions improved their offensive line, so I don't think they're too worried about the Vikings anymore. But but the Vikings traded away one of their best defensive players, what Grenard or whatever? They did, yeah. Yeah, so we're happy about that. And uh, I don't know, we'll see. Yeah, we never know. All right. I I used to it's funny. I used to really look forward to the NFL draft when my team wasn't very good, but now that the Lions are pretty good, right? You they don't have as many needs and they don't pick as early, and so you just we'll see. Who knows anymore?
SPEAKER_00It was interesting, Nick, for the Vikes because uh after the quarterback that we let go took his next team to the Super Bowl and won, uh, that general manager didn't last very long. And uh he was let go. And then the other quarterback he let go uh, you know, led his team almost to the playoffs and then got injured. That was Daniel Jones, the latter, and the former was uh Sam Darnold. And our quarterback didn't spend a lot of time on the field, was injured a lot, and didn't play very well. So uh we got a new general manager.
SPEAKER_02But I saw today they interviewed uh an assistant general manager for the Bills.
SPEAKER_00Oh, did they?
SPEAKER_02Okay, you're so that's news breaking today.
SPEAKER_00Good. I'm glad, Nick, that you are up on more current news on the Vikings than I am. Could work.
SPEAKER_02I I follow the Vikings.
SPEAKER_00I just, you know, because I want to be able to talk to you about things and I was putting out ministry brush fires. How's that?
SPEAKER_02So So um, Andy, we're still in Revelation. We're in Revelation 12. Today we're gonna get today, we're gonna get a stop me if you've heard this before. We're gonna get a crazy story, but it's got a good theological lesson in it. So uh a crazy story that has a good theological lesson in it. But Andy, I think you wanted to take a little time to uh set the scene for us or tell us a little bit about why we're studying Revelation. So go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Well, Nick, you and others have been giving me grief about why don't you like revelation? And uh, you know, I just joke about when will it be done? And, you know, we got to give a serious answer to that as well. I mean, why study revelation? If someone were to ask you that, why study revelation? And often it seems culturally the answer is well, you know, to kind of know when the end of the world or what the end of the world is going to be like, or all of those sorts of questions. And and so I put a little thought into this, and uh uh I think it's just important to name why we are spending time on listening, on studying, on reading the book of Revelation. And I think the first answer, the big answer, is it gives us a picture of God's ultimate ending, God's ultimate sovereignty, that that, you know, in the midst of everything, when we wonder where is God, that God ultimately has the final word. That's number one. And then I think the second one, and Americans aren't going to resonate with this as much, it encourages us uh to persevere through trial. I mean, I was talking to someone uh this week who is doing mission in a different country that I really can't name. And uh it's I mean, his life has often been in danger, and there have been attempts on his life. And um I mean, keeping perseverance through the faith, I mean, through trial, uh, I mean, that's that's uh what we hear in Revelation. That's what we're encouraged to do. And then I think the piece that would be, uh should be more applicable to us in the American church would be the fostering of worship. I mean, it really centers on uh the glory of Jesus Christ. And that's something that I've been taking away. Every time I've been reading Revelation, uh, I'm seeing all these passages that I think, hey, I've seen that in a hymn. I've heard that in a worship song. I've I can I can hear the music that's been set to that. And often uh in worship, we don't see the connection between scripture verses uh and what is happening, you know, in a traditional setting in the liturgy or in a contemporary setting in many of the worship songs. We don't make the connection. Hey, that's right out of the Bible. And so I think that's uh three things sovereignty, uh, perseverance in trial, and worship. Nick, thoughts on that? Can I add one to that? Uh well, just one.
SPEAKER_02Why are we studying revelation? Because every pastor has to lead a study on revelation once in their career. And the best way to do it is through podcast, so that if anyone says to us for the rest of our careers, what do we think about revelation? We can say, we made a podcast, go listen to the podcast. If you have questions, let me know. That way it's done and we don't ever have to worry about it again. Yeah, it's it's good take, good take, Nick. You know, but yeah, you're right. You know, sovereignty and the giving us courage and and um, you know, strength to to deal with per persecutions and all the stuff, yes.
SPEAKER_00And and the worship piece for me is, you know, you go through times uh where you really kind of see a need, either in your church or the larger church, or something that maybe is not there, or something hits you uh in a new way. And for me, it's been what happens in worship so often I hear raises like her, learn something new today, Pastor. Okay, well that's good. And, you know, that was really applicable to my life, Pastor. Okay, that's awesome. What you don't really hear as much is, you know, I really felt the Lord speaking to me. I, I, you know, the the Holy Spirit was whispering to me. That was, you know, uh, I came away, that was exactly what I needed to hear. Now I do hear that one on occasion, but it's the whole notion of, I mean, worship is, you know, we're prioritizing the presence of God, that God is doing something in worship. We're gathering as God's people, and God does something among God's people, and God encourages us to abide in his presence, and worship is such a big part of that. Uh, that's kind of a theme I've been lifting up a lot lately. Yeah, yeah. Love that. So, Nick, uh, we talked about cats going to heaven. Um, my question for you today is are there dragons in the Bible? That's what I'm curious about. Good question.
SPEAKER_02Man, what a great transition. You are the best. That's great.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm not. I'm the worst, actually. But I get curious.
SPEAKER_02I play this game at times with members of my congregation where I have everybody stand up and I say, I might have told you about this game before. Is it a Bible verse or not? Right. And I take verses from the Bible and like passages from the Lord of the Rings and all the other different things, and I say, Okay, is this a Bible verse? If you think it is, put your hand on your head, and if you don't, put your hands on your hips. And it takes about six things in everyone sitting down because the there's some wild stuff in the Bible that we just don't really know about that we don't read very often. And this is one of those. This is one of those. The woman and the dragon. And so the first six verses of Revelation 12 is the story of the woman and the dragon. And I'm gonna I I'm just gonna summarize the first couple. So there's a woman who uh is clothed with the sun and there's the moon under her feet, and on her head is a crown of twelve stars, and she's pregnant, and she's gonna give birth, and then there's this dragon, this dragon who's there to eat the child as soon as it's born. So verse four, then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to deliver a child so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. So that's something that shows up in my game. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. Most people don't think that's in the Bible, but it is. It is. Um and so uh she gave birth to a son, a male child who is to rule all the nations with a scepter of iron. But her son was snatched. This is verse five. Her son was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness where she was placed. Uh she has a place prepared by God so that she'll be nourished. So the woman and the dragon, again, a weird, a weird piece of scripture, but it's got some good good stuff in it. Okay. So this woman is pursued by the dragon, she's giving birth to the child, the dragon wants to eat the child as soon as it's born. Um Andy, what do you think this image teaches us about the ongoing spiritual conflict between God's kingdom and evil? How can you not love this, Andy? This is great stuff. This is a revelation.
SPEAKER_00That is awesome. Dragons. Um Okay. So here's the big idea here, Nick. God protects his people, okay? And and I'm I know people could challenge that from their own experience, but the big idea is God is protecting despite the dragon's fierce opposition, okay? The Messiah reigns, and the church is divinely nourished and sheltered in the wilderness. That's the big takeaway from this, okay, and what to do with dragons and why there are dragons. And uh, I mean, there is an ongoing conflict, spiritual conflict between God's kingdom and evil. And often we don't see that, we don't want to see that, we, you know, our mindsets, our frameworks for understanding reality are often different different than the biblical framework. Uh so often it's, man, if anything is bad happening in my life, why did God cause that? I I mean, we really we miss kind of the broader biblical framework of a, you know, a spiritual war between good and evil. And um spiritual conflict is another way of saying that. And, you know, the end result of that is ultimately God is protecting his people. And in this story, we see that. I mean, it's despite the dragon's, I mean, fierce opposition to this woman. But as to a dragon eating the child, why and how and what, Nick, I'm gonna leave that one to you. So, what's your take on this?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think this this is a story that kind of predates Jesus coming into the world, that evil tried to stop Jesus from coming into the world. Yeah. To me, this this is the story of Herod trying to kill Jesus, right? That's how this actually played out in the world is that when Jesus was born, evil tried to stop Jesus from coming. The dragon is the devil, and the work of the devil tried to stop Jesus from coming, and it's King Herod trying to kill the infant Jesus. And so, you know, I think the message is that you know there there is danger. There's even danger for God coming into the world, and yet God will per will will preserve his people, and his people will persevere uh even in the midst of all this evil in the world trying to stop it. Evil will not stop the work of God in the world, no matter how hard it tries, no matter how big and scary the dragon is. Um it, you know, that's the the the dragon is Satan's ongoing attempt to destroy God's promises and God's people, and God's just not gonna let that happen. And uh uh and so I think that you know, as part of the woman going, you know, being the or the Hey everyone, so sorry about that. Uh uh I'm in Texas this morning. We had a little bit of a thunderstorm roll through and I got knocked out. So uh we're we're gonna continue on though with Revelation chapter 12. We finished with uh talking about the dragon and the woman, and we said that the dragon represented Herod trying to kill Jesus, and uh God protected Jesus when Jesus was born. And uh uh and so uh we're gonna continue to the next part about uh verse five, who says, and she gave birth to a son who is to rule all the nations with the scepter of iron. A scepter of iron, which is language coming straight from Psalm 2 about the uh the king that will rule with a scepter of iron. So uh Andy, you talked a little bit about this, about the God's sovereignty. So, how does this passage connect Jesus' victory, kingship, and authority over the world as one who rules with a rod of iron or a scepter of iron? What do you think?
SPEAKER_00Um, I don't have a lot to add other than God protects his people uh in the midst of opposition. Uh the Messiah reigns, uh, you know, the church is nursed and sheltered when we're in the wilderness. And that again is a foreign concept to Americans because we don't feel like we're in the wilderness and often we're missing what is happening there. Uh, Nick?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just think that this is a piece of scripture that probably is we don't read it with too much interest right now, but over the course of 2,000 years, this has been very comforting for Christians, Christians who have been part of uh different empires and different nations and governments and you know, empires that rise and fall, and nations that struggle, and evil seems very powerful at times. And this is this is scripture saying Jesus is king and Jesus is going to reign, and there's nothing the world can do to stop Jesus reigning. Uh Jesus, you know, Jesus is in charge, and uh we can we can find comfort in that, even though in the midst of times where it looks like evil's in charge, uh scripture tells us no, Jesus is in charge. Jesus is there. Uh evil is at work in the world, but Jesus is there in the end, Jesus wins, and Jesus is going to rule all of eternity. And so I think that's just it's just something for us to be comforted by.
SPEAKER_00So, Nick, it gets interesting here now, um, verse seven. Uh it says, a war broke out in heaven. So I'm looking forward to you uh describing that. And then there's a passage that often people bring up Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. So we have Michael and the angels versus a dragon. There's a war going on in heaven. The dragon and his angels, they fought back, but they were defeated. Okay, that's even more interesting. And there was no longer any place for them in heaven. So no room in heaven. The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, serpent who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And uh so um, this is Nick, this is uh a great story that gets told often about Satan and evil coming into the world. I'm looking forward to uh your response. So, Nick, what does it reveal about Satan's power, limitations, ultimate defeat? Uh, because Michael and his angels, they battle the dragon and cast him down from heaven. So, Nick, I'm here to learn.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think this helped this helps us understand the evolution of Satan's role in heaven, uh, starting with the Job, right? Satan is part of God's heavenly council, so Satan seems like resides or is at least welcome in heaven uh as we look, as we read through Job. And then we reach this point where uh Satan is no longer allowed in heaven. We don't we you know the New Testament this seems to me as something that happens between Job and the New Testament. And I think I think Revelation 12, this whole chapter is something that happens prior to Jesus being born, or at least as part of, you know, it it's part of the longer history. Uh it's not a future telling, it's a it's a it's John looking back at the past. Uh and so Satan was part of the heavenly council and he was thrown from heaven. He is no longer part of the heavenly council, he's no longer welcome in heaven. And what we see is that Satan is not God's equal. Satan does not fight God, Satan fights angels. And the angels are victorious over Satan. So so Satan is in no way, shape, or form God's equal. Satan cannot compare to God uh in terms of power, in terms of strength, in terms of winning a battle. Uh, but but so Satan is thrown into the world, and so Satan comes to the world, and instead of a Attacking God attacks God's people. And so if you're looking at it from the perspective of like humans, Satan isn't an army that goes against God, like, you know, you know, Germany in World War II went against, you know, you know, the Allied and the Axis forces going against one another. Instead, Satan is like a terrorist. Satan doesn't attack God per se. Satan attacks God's people. Right? Satan, Satan shows up and attacks individual people and doesn't attack God anymore. So Satan is like a terrorist acting in the world, trying to ruin God's people, trying to ruin their lives. And it says that he is the deceiver of the whole world, and so deception is his main weapon as to what Satan is doing in the world, how Satan attacks is through deception. I I um and I don't know if you've had a lot of conversations with other Christians about Satan, but but I'm kind of shocked at how many kind of times I have a conversation with someone about Satan, and they don't believe in Satan. They don't believe that Satan exists. They believe Satan is something that we've made up or so that has been made up to make us feel better about the bad decisions we make. But Jesus in John 8.44 calls Satan the father of all lies, so the deceiver and a murderer from the beginning. And and when you look at the world and you see all the deception, or you see all the murder, or you see all the killing of one, you know, the way human beings kill one another, I say, you know, Satan is alive and well and at work in the world, um, but is limited, is limited to just the way that, you know, as a terrorist is a terrorist organization cannot declare war on a country and fight in normal battle. So they just they just attack the people, and that's what Satan is doing. And Satan is trying to deceive you and I today to try and get us to live a different way than God wants us to live and to do the things that uh you know draw us away from God. So that's where I am with this. I don't know what your thoughts are, uh Andy.
SPEAKER_00Nick, I think it was the great uh pastor, preacher Spurgeon. Didn't he say that uh Satan and his angels fell from heaven and landed in the choir? With the choir? I mean the church choir. I always thought it was uh absolutely hysterical. I think he was doing commentary on trouble that pastors sometimes have with the choir. We, of course, you and I don't have any trouble with our choirs, but I thought it was it was uh pretty humorous. That's uh a famous quote. I'll have to look up the specifics on it. Uh but the other piece is, Nick, when I read stories like this, I was thinking about a story I heard like 30 years ago about a missionary and uh who was in an unreached area, and the uh there were local people, you know, presumably from another religious or group, r religion or group that were coming literally to kill this missionary and his family. And that group stopped outside the home in which the missionary was, and then they turned away and they fled. And years later, uh the missionary was actually speaking to one of these people, and he said, What caused you to turn away? And uh the missionary was told by these people that it was they had seen great angelic warriors with spears who were surrounding this home and protecting the missionary from those who were coming to kill him. And uh it was so, I mean, so what's the point of that story? Is that uh, you know, there are people who've experienced something like this. And I was in a, I'm being attacked by a cat right now who is in the house. I was uh, I don't know about cats in heaven with this one, Nick. He is uh going after me. Uh, but I was uh in a meeting this week with a pastor again that I mentioned earlier in the podcast, and who was talking about angels protecting uh pastors and leaders in uh the group that he was a part of. And I said, Well, what do you mean by angel? Do you mean literally white angelic beings protecting uh people, or do you just mean people who are acting like we would presume angels to be bringing protection? And he said, No, these were literally visible white angels lined up, protecting those who were preparing and studying to go out and share the gospel with the world. Um pretty interesting to be talking face to face with someone who has literally seen uh the kind of uh uh images that we're hearing in Revelation. And secondly, you know, this is a battle in heaven uh that we're reading about, but you know, having angels provide protection here on earth. And it opens my eyes to maybe some of my Western viewpoints that sort of limit or the scope of what is possible are expanded by people who have experienced things I never have. Nick.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh just to bring it all together, have you ever seen the movie Coco?
SPEAKER_00Uh Nick, I I'm not a regular at the theater. Yeah, and I just so I'm kidding. Uh no, I haven't. I haven't. I should. Nick, I should see all these movies are great. And I did watch a movie uh this past week, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_02So it's a it's about the Dia de la Muertes. It's about, I mean, it's a beautiful, it's it's it's it's absolutely a beautiful um cartoon movie by Disney that is about a family who is in heaven and uh or the land of the dead, and uh it's about all saints day and about remembering um remembering our loved ones. And they are basically protected in this heavenly area by their spirit guide, which is basically like uh um uh their guardian angel. And you know who it is? No, it's their cat. It's their cat from life. That's right.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02So it just brings it all together.
SPEAKER_00What about this cat? Would he be he's he's attacking me? So I don't know.
SPEAKER_02He's showing his affection.
SPEAKER_00Okay, we'll go with that. That's a better, that's a more generous.
SPEAKER_02He's attacking you with love.
SPEAKER_00With love and claws. Yeah. So uh it's okay.
SPEAKER_02Now we're gonna get to verse 10 and 11. And Andy, I have to tell you, before we start this, this is going to lead us to such an important question. Such an important question. If if if we study the book of Revelation and do podcasts on it for a year only to answer this question, it's worth it. If you're listening at home, this question is the question. It's worth it. So please pay attention to this one. This is a good one. And I hope Handy has a really good answer. That's a really good question.
SPEAKER_00I have an answer. I don't know. It's that good, though, but I'm listening, Nick. I want to I want to know what's so exciting, too.
SPEAKER_02Verse 10 and 11. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven proclaiming, now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of the Messiah. For the accuser, the accuser, that's the Old Testament understanding of Satan, that Satan was the accuser, Hasatan, the accuser, okay, uh, of our brothers and sisters have been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. But they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not cling to life, even in the face of death. They did not cling to life even in the face of death, Andy. Uh they conquer by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And so here is the very important question. Here is the question we all need to wrestle with. What does it mean for Christians today for you and I to overcome evil through Jesus rather than through worldly power or force? Because this is radically different from how the world usually thinks about victory. We are saying that our victory over evil in the world comes from Jesus, not from power or force. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00Well, absolutely that's the truth. Um I mean, what it what does it mean? You know, kind of what I'm saying is, I mean, it means relying on Christ's finished sacrifice and faithful witness rather than coercion. In other words, it's classic Lutheran theology. We rely entirely on what Christ has done on our behalf through the cross and resurrection. And that same power of resurrection that we see in Christ is available to all who believe through the Holy Spirit. So it's not coercion, uh, coercing the world to follow Christ, to coercing the world to, you know, in all these ways. It's um it's relying on Christ, what Christ has done. And, you know, believers overcome by resting in his victory. And again, this is this feels passive, not active. This feels like, you know, we're not doing anything, but live literally what we're doing is we're relying on what Christ has done and what Christ will do on our behalf rather than on what we're doing. And why would we do that? I mean, it disarms the enemy's accusations and worldly threats. Um, Nick, I'm hoping you can put that together a little more cleanly. Um, I mean, if we were looking at something broader and bigger, we would bring in Luther's Two Kingdoms, which is really about what is the place of government force and power uh expressed in the world, uh, presumably uh in the service of good, versus what does that look like in our own lives? So, Nick.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh so uh what here's what I had to say. So the the world believes that evil is defeated through dominance or through the threat of dominance, through violence, through revenge, through intimidation, and through political power. But if we look at Jesus, Jesus' power was truth, was forgiveness, was faithful endurance, faithfulness, and sacrificial love. And that's the path we are called to follow. We've been, our Tuesday and our Bible study group has been going through the Old Testament. We've done David, we've done the judges, we've done Moses. And when you look at David fighting Goliath, David defeated Goliath not because he was the bigger warrior, but because he was faithful. David believed that God defeated Goliath. David said, Because God is on my side, Goliath cannot win. Last night we did a Bible study on Gideon. Gideon who went to war against the Midianites, who took 300. There were 32,000 warriors there, and God said, send 32,000 of them home and keep 300. Because I don't want this victory to be, I don't want it in history people to say, well, they won because they had more soldiers. They won because they had the Lord on their side. So it was thousands of Midianites against 300 Israelites, and the 300 Israelites won because they had God on their side. And so we find the church's power comes from the presence of God, not force. It's in the gospel. It's in the presence of God, the gospel that says, I am with you, I love you, I'm going to help you. Uh we know that the Roman Empire, they had incredible armies and they had incredible power. Uh but it was the early church that that outlasted the Roman Empire. Uh, it was the early church that suffered uh but was faithful, that endured uh even in the midst of oppression and persecution. And I think this is one of the central themes to Revelation. This is the kind of thing that we need to understand as we read Revelation. This is what Revelation is trying to tell us. In this time of division, believers overcome not by becoming like the beast, but by being like Jesus, by living like Jesus. This is how we overcome all the difficult difficulty in our time and in throughout all of history. It's we never bec we never win by becoming like the beast. We we just follow Jesus' lead and we remain faithful and we tell the truth and we forgive and we love and the church the church thrives in the midst of without reason, without people can't understand why why are good things happening in the church? Well, because the spirit, because God is with us, and because we're we're we're we're being disciples, and when God is with us and when we're being disciples, the the church can't help but but thrive. So that's what I have.
SPEAKER_00Very nice, Nick. You know, what's so interesting is you go to Rome today, and what do you see? I mean, the Roman Empire tried to destroy the early church, and what you see everywhere representing Christianity are crosses. You see them everywhere on buildings, around people's necks, uh in, you know, just visibly everywhere. And it's amazing that this sign of torturing and destroying the tool used to destroy the Christian church is now a sign of the Christian church. Kind of an older illustration, but I do think it's uh literally amazing. Well, Nick, uh, we should move on to an angry dragon here. Uh the dragon was angry with a woman. This is verse 17, and went off to wage war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus. So dragon goes off to make war against those who, quote, keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus. Uh, that's persecution. And so, Nick, in the face of that, how do Christians remain faithful? How do they remain hopeful when following Jesus brings opposition and suffering?
SPEAKER_02Maybe that's what we should have named our podcast, the Angry Dragon Podcast. The Angry Dragon. Uh, how do we remain faithful and hopeful when Jesus, following Jesus brings opposition and suffering? Well, I think we we remain faithful by remembering a few things that are true. As Lutherans, we believe in the theology of the cross, right? In the theology of the cross, we know that Christ suffered. And so God knows suffering. Jesus suffered first. So we are specifically Christians 2,000 years ago, persecution and suffering. They know they knew it in a way that we we probably struggle to understand. Uh, but we're around the world, people today are struggling uh, you know, with with persecution. But but Jesus suffered first. We are never called to do something that Jesus was unwilling to do first. Uh secondly, we remember that we aren't alone, that God is with us, that the Holy Spirit is with us. The Holy Spirit is with us to to give us strength, to guide us, to lead us, to to do all the things that we need God to do. God is with us for those uh for that moment. Um evil doesn't get the final word. Evil doesn't get the final word. I love the um working on my sermon for this weekend, 1 Peter chapter 3, one of the one of the things Peter writes is do not fear what they fear. Do not fear what they fear. The people of this world who are dead set against God, do not fear what they fear. Uh, because hope in eternity changes the way we see the present. Resurrection and victory are coming. We are everyone who's listening to this podcast right now is going to die. And everyone who's listening to this podcast who has faith in Jesus Christ is going to rise again. Do not fear what they fear. Do not fear death the way they fear death. Do not fear the things that they fear, because evil doesn't get the final word. God does, and it's something we need to be reminded of and we need to remember. And then uh, how do we remain faithful? Well, uh, Christian community, being a part of a Christian community, uh being lifted up by our brothers and sisters in Christ. Um, I had a conversation with someone after church on Sunday who has been a member of Abiding Grace for a while. And um that she said, I I didn't know life could be this good. I didn't know life could be this good. Being a part of a Christian community, I didn't know life could be it doesn't mean that life is easy, but it means that life is good when you have people who you can trust, you have people who are with you through difficult times, uh, and and when you know you when you know that God is with you and you know that you're loved, when you know that you're loved for just who you are, life is good. Life can be good even in the midst of difficult times. Uh, and then we get that through Christian community. And so so this type of faithfulness and hopefulness that that helps us overcome suffering and opposition, it looks pretty ordinary, but it's just simply continuing to worship, continuing to pray, continuing to love others, continuing to trust God even when circumstances are difficult. And so, you know, I think that's the main message of that's the main message of Revelation. Revelation was written to a church that was being persecuted and people were suffering, and this is good news for them. It was meant to comfort them, and we're trying to, we're trying to make really difficult things, you know, really strange things and and difficult verses we're trying to come up with, well, what does this mean for us today? Well, well, some of it I think was written for people 2,000 years ago and anyone since who has been uh oppressed or suffered, and uh um and but I think here's the main lesson is that there's no persecution, no suffering, nothing that can happen, nothing that the dragon or the beast or anything can do to you that can separate God's people from the victory already won in Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_01So there I've got feeling a little preachy, but that's where I am.
SPEAKER_00Amen, Nick. How can I top that? I cannot top that. That is just awesome. I I especially loved your comment about someone talking about life in the body. I mean, that's a sign of the Holy Spirit doing something at work in them where they love being in the church, love being a part of it, where something significant is happening in their life. That's I mean, that's what's supposed to happen. And sometimes it's elusive. I was talking to a guy this week, came into my office, and he, you know, has been around for a year or two at our church, and he said, you know, I've gone to church more here in the last two years than I did in the 30 years that preceded it, you know. Uh, and it was just awesome. He wants to be there and he wants to attend, and something significant is happening, and he feels bad when he's not there and when he's not doing more. Uh, I just loved it. Uh, Nick, I cannot top your answer. Excellent. Uh, faith is sustained by God's, you know, sovereignty and God's victory uh through the Lamb. Uh and um the promise of eternal heavenly inheritance, that there is something bigger and something more. I've been doing more funerals than usual the last uh many months. And that's just a key piece that ultimately kind of confirms what you were saying, that this is the ultimate hope. So, Nick, you said it better, very well put. And uh I like also what you said about how, you know, this may not be spoken directly to us, but it was draw uh spoken directly to God's people who were in the midst of this reality. Uh nicely put. So Nick's.
SPEAKER_02And I think I think just to wrap it all up, I mean, I think revolution is uh revolution, revelation is absolutely worth studying because I mean it it it provides comfort and and it it's good stuff. It's good stuff for us today, even if we don't understand all the imagery and all the other stuff that some of it makes us go, what is that's nuts? But uh yeah, I I just think it's I think it's helpful.
SPEAKER_00So dragons, Nick, uh Revelation 12. It's about the dragons.
SPEAKER_02Did you know that Southlake Carroll High School, the the high school right around the corner from our church, you know what their their mascot is?
SPEAKER_00Are they the dragons? The dragons. Send them the podcast, man. Okay, send it to their next opposition, the dragons.
SPEAKER_02It's a good thing they don't play the angels in football because the angels defeat the dragons, right? Yes, right.
SPEAKER_00That would be awesome. You know, you're you okay. I love it, Nick. Well put. Great to see you. Good to connect.
SPEAKER_02You too, Andy. Everyone take care of yourselves. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.