Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Join Pastors Nick Billardello and Andy Romstad as they teach the Christian faith in a relevant and relatable way. They also talks about other stuff.
Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Revelation 6 w/ Nick & Andy
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The seven seals of Revelation 6
Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's Word one chapter at a time. Hey Andy, how you doing today? It's a Friday. We're recording on our days off.
SPEAKER_01Nick, it is our day off. I've got one appointment after another today. Uh yeah, that's uh not smart. I should, if I called it a Sabbath, I think somebody told me this. Call it a Sabbath instead of a day off, then you feel worse about scheduling things on it. So I don't know. But uh Nick, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02Is that the secret?
SPEAKER_01I don't apparently.
SPEAKER_02I haven't tried it, but I'm letting Jesus down by working today. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Apparently. Okay.
SPEAKER_02But we didn't record last week. I was on vacation and I brought my microphone on vacation. I was ready to record on the beach in Florida, and I sent you the information and you sent back, really? You're on vacation. But then you had a cold. So so last week we didn't record. I was on vacation, but I was ready to go. But Andy had a cold. So uh if you missed us last week, uh it was because of Andy, not me. So Andy, are you feeling better?
SPEAKER_01I I have got this cold that lasts forever, but everyone who's had this said it lasts for weeks. But I'm better than I was a week ago. You didn't want to hear what I sounded like a week ago. But uh, Nick, I did seriously not think that you would record last week. I didn't, I even I gave you no credit for taking vacation time, unlike myself who insisted on vacation to record.
SPEAKER_02Well, you are a bit more pious than I, and I probably should have just I brought I brought everything. I was ready to go, but uh I'm glad you're feeling better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh but uh I heard uh you guys had some weather up there. Uh I remember a couple weeks ago you were giving us a hard time because we had to cancel service because of ice. And uh and then what happened to you this past weekend, Andy?
SPEAKER_01Nick, we had to cancel church because Snow Mageddon was moving in. They were forecasting, I don't know, 17 inches of snow. And classic story in the end, I think we got where we are, five inches of snow. But the roads were impassable. Apparently. Apparently. Although Allie did, classic Allie, my wife Allie, did go out driving to uh try and get something done and did say the roads, at least one of them that she was on, was really not passable. So uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02All right. Uh what's it like there today? Do you know what it's gonna be in the 90s today here?
SPEAKER_01I am jealous. We should have been in the 90s when I was, well, maybe not, when I was down there, what was it, a month or two ago already? It is gonna be 50 here today, 57 to 60 something tomorrow, which is uh amazing. But 90s, how are you tolerating that, Nick? I mean, it's March and you're in the 90s.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're gonna set a record, not really excited about it, but I'd rather be in the 90s than have to deal with a foot of snow melting, because that's you're just gonna be water everywhere, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, that could happen. Uh the big snow, you know, as happens, uh landed about 50 miles south of us. So they did, we did get snowed in, just not entirely here. But uh, but Nick, it was kind of fun. What we did was I uh we just knew two days in advance it was gonna be impassable. And it also happened to be my former associate Emily's first Sunday at her new church. So, Nick, I would have sent them all to your church, but instead I sent them all to uh Luther Memorial in Des Moines. And without telling Emily, we sent the whole church. I said, Emily's preaching churches at Emily's this Sunday, and we caught it on YouTube. And uh we had at one point we had 199 live viewers. We had 461 total views during the and way, way over. My goal was 50 comments in the live chat, way past that. And but the cool thing was it's her first Sunday at her new church. We wanted to support her, encourage her, send uh enthusiasm, be there for it. It was really kind of a really kind of amazing how it matched up like that, but kind of a fun day.
SPEAKER_02Awesome, awesome. Well, I saw you were watching. So did you send all of your people to that service and then come visit ours? Because I saw you checked in at our service online. I did, Nick.
SPEAKER_01I went to catch your announcements. I said my announcements, okay. No, I you were at 10, so I went to your church, and but she was at 10 30. So I left early, Nick, to go to sermon. I did miss your sermon. But I did I hear right that you're preaching out in front now, like a guest preacher you had a while back.
SPEAKER_02I wouldn't say like I'm doing it for the first time. I do that, I used to do that a lot, but that's awesome.
SPEAKER_01And uh when I saw you, Nick, there were no notes. There was nothing. You were just out in front of everybody. Is that accurate?
SPEAKER_02That was accurate. I I you know I I am able to do that at times when I have the time to put into preparing the sermon. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You you are better than me then. I bring my notes out. And uh as a kind of like security blanket.
SPEAKER_02But uh no notes for me this past weekend. But then I preached Wednesday night at our midweek Lenten service and I had notes. I had like a full script because you know, you just what people don't realize. Here's here's what that people don't realize that when you preach without notes, they think, oh, he's just like going off the you know, because he didn't have time to work on a sermon this week. When in reality, if I have notes, that's because I didn't have time to work as much time as I'd like to work on a sermon. Uh-huh. I have no notes, that means I you worked a lot on it.
SPEAKER_01I get it. I am a note-intensive preacher. In the old days, they'd say, Oh, wow, you didn't even look at your notes, and nobody says that anymore.
SPEAKER_02But so uh, but Andy, the question everybody wants to know have you been flossing?
SPEAKER_01Uh no answer. Uh no answer. Uh uh does once in the past couple of days count?
SPEAKER_02Well, here's the sad part now. Every time I go to floss, I think of you, and I'm like, it's no weird. That's awesome. So weird.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, is bad. Oh, hysterical.
SPEAKER_02All right. Speaking of weird, uh, we're gonna get into Revelation 6 today. So far, Revelation has been fun, lots of good conversation. Now we're getting into the seven seals. The seven seals, uh prophetic events that are gonna be unleashed by Jesus. Uh they detail end times events, we think. God depends on, again, go back to the first uh our first revelation uh podcast where we talk about the different points of view, you know. So is is this a foretelling of things that will happen? Uh and it's about to get weird. And uh you know, I I I I really appreciate y'all coming along for the journey through the slow walk through Revelation. And let's just say that for the next couple weeks, uh, where in the past Andy and I have been pretty confident in our answers on things, uh, you know, you'll forgive us if some of our stuff just I mean we just don't know. So um so let's jump right in, verses one and two. Then I saw the lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures call out, as with a voice of thunder, come. I looked and there was a white horse. Its rider had a bow, a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering and to conquer. So um rider coming on a white horse. We we think someone on a white horse is a good guy, right? Not uh, you know, that's when you watch an old western, if they have a white hat on, it's a good guy, the black hat, bad guy. Uh, but so we think this is a good guy coming, but it's not. It's not this this is who we like the the the name we've given to this person is the antichrist, right? Uh and so he's given a crown, so he's given he's given the ability to rule. He's given a bow, which is you know, military, so he's he's coming to conquer, he's coming uh as a conqueror, and uh this is the antichrist coming. But but it's the antichrist is sent, right? Jesus opens the seven seals. So is the Antichrist sent by God to do what? What what do we think about the Antichrist? And I'm just gonna sit and listen. Go ahead, Dandy.
SPEAKER_01So you want my commentary on the Antichrist. Well, I'm just gonna begin here. I mean, people like the book of Revelation for all the wrong reasons. And one of them is, oh man, talks about the Antichrist. They like that. And also it's it's the conspiracy theorist's favorite book of the Bible, okay, for stuff just like this. And and the other piece, I think people look for answers exactly on this topic, the Antichrist. They look for answers in revelation that I don't really think it was intended to provide. Um, and then the last piece, and again, it applies to this verse we're looking at, is that people love to cherry-pick verses. I mean, forever, uh, going way back uh in in history, people have wondered, well, who is the Antichrist? And is this the Antichrist? And is so-and-so? I mean, every politician gets named by somebody as being the Antichrist. It's gotta be. And and so to get specifically to your question, a couple of thoughts, Nick, and then you correct me. Uh, the writer can only act because God has granted the writer permission. Uh, the Antichrist is a tool of judgment, uh, but Jesus is the word of God. But this the rider on the horse has a temporary crown and is allowed by God to fulfill a specific role in the end times judgment. Uh okay, Nick, uh any thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02Well, it all seems very consistent with the book of Job, right? Where Satan is not not the enemy of God, but part of the heavenly council and works in the world uh with the permission of God. You know, God says, yes, go and do these things, and I will permit you to do these things. Yeah, and so it's all very consistent with that view, instead of the idea that the Antichrist and that the devil are like uh, you know, the enemy of God, which I I think they can still be the enemy of God, but uh but but but working without God's approval or God's you know yeah, approval. So uh I don't know. It's it's it's it's weird. Uh you know, the Antichrist for many years people have had theories, as you said, like politicians. Did you know that one of the one of the uh 40 years ago, one of the common ideas was that Ronald Reagan was the Antichrist because he had six Ronald Wilson Reagan, six letters, six letters, six letters. Uh that's right. And so it's like, you know, we're trying to figure out who the Antichrist is and what the but but I think what's important is that what we know is that there are forces in this world, there are forces in this world that are trying to pull us away from God. Anything that tries to pull us away from God is the work of Antichrist in the world. Uh and so the scary part is that this person is going to come and they're gonna have the white hat on, you know, they're gonna they're gonna come across as the good guy and they're gonna try and pull us away from from Christianity, and they might do so uh and and make it very appealing to to be pulled away. And so we have to, you know, stay in scripture, stay in prayer, stay, you know, go keep going to church, keep listening to your pastors, and make sure that your pastor, what they're saying, is biblical. Uh and so I think it's important to be aware that there are forces in the world already trying to pull us away from God.
SPEAKER_01Nick, I mean, what you said there just now raises the classic question we've addressed elsewhere. Is it once saved, always saved, or can you lose your face and lose your faith and lose your salvation? Uh we won't get into that now. You can if you want, but we don't really. We've talked about that in the past. But um, verses three to four. When I thought I'd just open up that can of worms and then move right past it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's a great big question that we're just gonna pretend didn't happen.
SPEAKER_01I had to ask it though, because it's staring at us right there. I mean, all right, verses three to four.
SPEAKER_02Um we'll go in, Nick. Yeah, I the that's a quick answer, but if if you really want to know the long answer, I have a podcast on the an hour long on Heaven and Hell. I encourage you to listen to it.
SPEAKER_01When he opened the second seal, I heard the living creature call out, come, and out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth so that people would slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword. All right, so uh gotta love Revelation here, Nick.
SPEAKER_02So this writer is a party to you.
SPEAKER_01It's just like so this writer will take peace from the earth. And so, Nick, I mean, is peace between nations a gift from God? Uh, can God take it away? Uh, how is this reflected in human history, Nick? What is what is your take on this?
SPEAKER_02First, I think it's interesting that the first rider comes on a white horse, meaning that like everyone's gonna think it's a good guy. This one is coming on a red horse. The red is the color of blood. It is gonna be violence, it's gonna be slaughter. There is no mistake when this one comes. And and all he does is take peace away from the earth. He takes peace away and he lets the people of Earth do what they're gonna do. Right? When you take peace away, yeah, he he doesn't start conflict, humans are good enough at the he doesn't humans will handle that. We got that. You just take peace away, take peace out of our hearts, and we will do the conflict, right? We we will take care of it. And so how is this reflected in human history? Well, our modern age, the world that we live in is marked by war and conflict. Since World War II, there have been more than 150 wars of some kind in the world. That's in the last 75 years. There's been 150 wars. And at any given moment in in the world, there's you there's you usually somewhere between two to three dozen armed conflicts going on, taking thousands of lives every year. And did you know, Andy, did you know the nations of the world spend more than a trillion dollars a year on military expenditures? So is is the Red Horse here? Has the has the peace been taken away? I mean, it's you could certainly look back at the world the way it was for the la well for the last 2,000 years, the world has been at war, right? And it's really, you know, since since World War I and on, you know, it's really become a worldwide of a um phenomenon. And, you know, so has God taken away peace? Well, I don't know. Have we have we decided that God's peace isn't enough, or has God taken it away, or is the red rider here? I don't know, but but I will say this people slaughter one another every day. And so this is something that when we talk about is this a future thing? Well, we we are living in this now. There is war and there is violence and there is slaughter every day. It happens every day, it happens all around the world. Um, and so you know, I I would say say we're living in this now. And it it doesn't have to be nation against nation, it can be human against human, you know, it happens every day, every day in America. Um, and so, you know, it's has God taken it away? Has God taken his peace away from us, or have we just said it's not good enough for us? Uh, or is that the work of you know, the forces in this world that defy God that are trying to make us be less like God? Uh, you know, but but it's true that that you know, violence and slaughter happen every day. What are your thoughts, Andy?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, you covered a lot of what I was gonna cover. Um, violence is the result of human sin uh at any given time. I've I've heard there are like 30 plus wars going on in the world. The battle of good versus evil is ongoing. Evil does exist. Uh Luther wrote about the two kingdoms. It is necessary uh to resist evil. Uh what's interesting to me, though, is you know, violence is really a result of human sin, at least on one party's fault. And but it it occurs within the sovereign timelines of God's judgment. And I that's really what I, you know, I mean it's difficult to get your arms around that, especially if you're in the midst of it.
SPEAKER_02Nick Amen. Amen. So I think uh let's just go right at cause because there's like a theme that's like making itself apparent as we go through this. Verses five and six. When he opened the third seal, I heard the living creature c uh call out, Come, I looked, and there was a black horse. It's rider held a pair of scales in his hand, scales so that you know, for justice. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four creatures saying, a quart of wheat for a day's pay, and three quarts of barley for a day's pay, but do not damage the olive oil in the wine. So the rider comes, measures out food at extremely high prices, you know, a day's pay for a quart of wheat speaks of injustice, speaks of scarcity. Uh these are prices like twelve times higher than normal just for enough to to make a loaf of bread. Imagine imagine a full day's salary just so you can afford a loaf of bread. Um and so what this is talking, this is talking about hyperinflation, right? It's talking about making food uh unaffordable for the poor. Uh it's talking about scarcity, it's talking about not having enough. Um so what does this passage say about economic scarcity and um uh and care for the poor and what that has to do with you know the way that God wants us to live? And you know, is this is this happening right now? Is this uh, you know, you look at inflation, you look at the ways in which you know the poor are having a hard time being able to afford to feed their family. You know, what what are your thoughts on this, Andy?
SPEAKER_01Uh just a couple of notes. Um, I mean, economic scarcity, care for the poor. Uh one of the things we might miss in uh this particular passage is they were measuring by grams, not just in volume. Um I mean, that's taking some of our measurements, of course, and and uh, you know, projecting them onto what they were doing. But the point is that was done in times of extreme. They got they got measurement down to the gram, down to the very smallest amount is the big idea, not just measuring in volume. And that was a sign of intense uh rationing and survival. Uh it was interesting that uh my kids and I were actually talking about this kind of thing last night, and and I was just telling stories about how in the old Soviet Union, I mean, they'd literally have to stand in line to get loaves of bread, and that is so foreign to uh what's happening in the United States uh to us. I mean, that's just like uh that's just weird. But there are parts of the world where that's the case, especially where free markets don't exist, where you can't produce and sell goods, where there's no incentive for production, uh uh, or where there is just, you know, governmental or other forms of oppression where people are literally held captive. Uh, this is very real. This is very real. I remember ages ago uh in college studying areas of uh South America where, I mean, a day's wage was like a bowl of beans uh for a family cost a day's wage. And um, we are just, I mean, the whole concept of freedom and how freedom in many ways has freed us from these sorts of things is is really pretty powerful to me. Uh, Nick.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but what I'm noticing here is that these things that are supposed to be happening in the future seem to be happening in the present. Or we can actually look and say, they've happened in the past, and they are happening in the present in some places in the world. And so I think the the uh American way to read this is like, oh, this is gonna happen in the future, but in the from a world from a global perspective, you read it and you think, this is happening already. This is this stuff is happening already. And so, you know, is this are we looking forward to a future when it's gonna happen, or do we say, you know, that this is all part of what's happening in the world now? And you know, when when Revelation is written, it's not talking about a very specific short period of time that's going to come in the future. It's talking about this is going to be the future of the world. Violence is going to be the future of the world. There is always going to be places around the world where it's going to cost a day's wage to get a loaf of bread. That's part of the future of the world, not because that's the way God wants it, but because you see. The work of the forces that defy God at work in the world.
SPEAKER_01And that's an important biblical interpretive tool, which is context. We read everything through our own context, through our own sort of lens. And um that it's it's really important to keep that in mind anytime you're reading scripture. Uh yeah. So next.
SPEAKER_02So somehow in the script, I'm I'm supposed to go twice in a row here, so I guess I'll go uh continue with verses seven and eight. I I I did this while I was on vacation, expecting to record this podcast. Who knows? All right, seven and eight. When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature call out, come. I looked and there was a pale green horse. Its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed with him. They were given authority over a fourth of the earth to kill with sword, famine, and pestilence by the wild animals of the earth. I think I think that's the new translation that Hades followed with him. The old translation is that hell the pale horse whose whose name was Death and Hell followed with him. I think that sounds like a Johnny Cash song. I love it.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. That's fine.
SPEAKER_02Alright, so the pale horse, a lot of death coming, dictatorship, war, famine, and other calamities described by the previous three horsemen. So hell breaks loose on earth. We say, Is God still in control? Does this vision bother you? Andy, how does this how does the promise of victory over death change how we read this? And how how do we read this and not think of World War II, where so many people on the earth died uh during that, you know, that decade of war, uh specifically in in Europe and Russia and and just all the all the death. What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Well, on that topic, if if there's anything uh in recent history that we can relate to that we see here, it's World War II. Uh in fact, C. S. Lewis, uh, if you know the book Mere Christianity, C. S. Lewis had a series of radio talks literally speaking into that very question again and again and again. If God is love, then how could God have allowed any of these things to happen? Uh I tend to think that we often look the other way and intentionally uh, or unintentionally, I guess I could say, uh, allow these things to happen by not addressing them, by ignoring them. Uh, but to get your question specifically, how does the promise of victory over death change how we read this? Um, I think it answers the question before we ask it. I mean, we read the scriptures in light of what uh Jesus has done through the resurrection and in light of what Paul has done. I was working on Easter stuff yesterday, and death has been swallowed up in the victory of our Lord Jesus Christ. But this vision bothers us either way, uh, because basically hell is breaking loose on the earth. And the question that always raises the doubt questions about God. And it also raises questions about why would God give us enough freedom for these things to happen. Uh, Nick?
SPEAKER_02I yeah. Uh not much more to add than that. I mean, it's it's it's bothersome because I think it's it's human beings doing what human beings are capable of when they are led by the wrong by the wrong leadership, right? When they when they allow themselves to follow the forces that defy God, that's that's what happens. And um and I think as people of faith, we're our where we come down to theologically on this, I'm gonna say this. This is a theological statement that I'm about to make. Um Death isn't the worst thing. Death isn't the worst thing for a person of faith because because of what happens next for a person of faith. Um and so they may, you know, they may take your life, but they can't take eternal life from you. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, including death. And so um while that is hard to hear, uh, that is a theological truth. And so I think it's something that we um that we find comfort in when we're told about the things that have happened and the things that may happen are happening, uh that you know, they can't take can't take eternal life away from us.
SPEAKER_01All right, Nick, we can unpack that more, but let's first move into verses nine through eleven, the fifth seal. When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given. They cried out with a loud voice, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on inhabitants of the earth? They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer until the number would be complete, both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed, as they themselves had been killed. So, Nick, um I mean, this is pretty interesting. These are martyrs crying out for vengeance. And uh, what does this say to Christians who are suffering and waiting on God's judgment? And how does this shape the way that we respond to suffering and evil? I mean, pretty big. What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02Well, first, uh we usually don't think of people in heaven spending their time crying out for vengeance, right? We think of heaven as a place of paradise of you know, of harps and golden streets and being reunited with those who we love. And we don't think of a time as where we say, hey, you know, can you can you go kill some people on earth for us, God? You know, that that's not something we ever associate with going on but but that's what's happening here. Um and these martyrs are told that they have to wait until all of God's appointed martyrs are killed. And so, you know, it's there there's more killing that has to be done before God is going to you know give them their vengeance. Uh uh for it's it's a weird it's a weird verse. It's a weird vision of heaven and what's going on up there. Um but so then the question is, will there ever be an end to martyrdom, Andy? I mean, they have to wait until the comp what complete the number would until the number would be complete, both of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were soon to be killed, as they themselves had been killed. Is there ever gonna be an end to Christian martyrdom in the world? I mean, this is what they're saying. What once the last martyr dies, then God's vengeance is going to come. And so then is there ever gonna be an end to martyrdom? I mean people of faith are are you know so be patient because vengeance is coming, justice is coming, and it's gonna come all at once, and it's gonna come when the last martyr after the last martyr dies, you know, that's what this says. Um it's it's an it's it's interesting. I I think I I think it's a s uh a comforting verse if you were living in a time when uh you were living in a place where Christians were being persecuted a lot, and it was something that you every day you walked out of your house, you were afraid that you might be uh killed or arrested for your faith. Um that that God is going to eventually get vengeance for you and for all the other martyrs. Uh, but it's, you know, I don't know really what to do with it beyond that. I I don't know what your thoughts are, Andy.
SPEAKER_01Couple of thoughts. You know, I hear other verses that sort of challenge this. I mean, so they have died, they're martyrs, they're crying out for vengeance. And then you find other passages where the uh followers of Jesus are told to turn the other cheek. Uh, okay, and judgment is God's alone, and it's not our, you know, so I find that difficult sometimes to uh, I mean, they're they're calling for something. Well, I guess if judgment is God's alone in this case, that would make sense that they're crying out, when will God bring judgment? But the other piece is forgiveness and reconciliation and not crying out for judgment and vengeance to happen. Uh, I guess that was the first thought that I had as a follower of Christ. I mean, calling out for my enemy to be destroyed by God doesn't seem to me to be exactly uh what it means to be a Christ follower. Uh so that was the first piece. And um, you know, I could I could go on, but I think that that whole notion, again, of where is God in suffering and you know, where is God in the midst of my pain uh is is real. I mean, I'm preaching this Sunday on Psalm 23. You prepare a table in the, you know, before me in the midst of my enemies, uh, you know, my cup runs over. Uh, okay, you know, does that mean God is going to protect me in every circumstance? Does that mean that all is going to be well? And what about those such as the martyrs for whom, you know, that was not the case? Uh, there are often pieces of scripture that challenge other pieces of scripture. Uh, Nick?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's a couple places where it says vengeance is mine, says the Lord, right? And so at what point are we talking about God being a God of vengeance? And at what point are we talking about God being a God of grace? And is it, you know, what is the line that that what is it because if we're talking about anyone who God should have gotten vengeance against, it should be like someone like the Apostle Paul, right? Who was a persecutor of the church who cast his vote against people and he saw, you know, he had them arrested, he had them killed. Uh, and yet God says, you know what, I'm gonna use you. Um and and then Paul goes on to incredible ministry. And so, you know, where what does God's vengeance look like? Uh but I think the comforting part is to know that God is keeping track. God is keeping track and um you know, is gonna do something. Uh vengeance belongs to God though, so um yeah, I don't really know what else to do with that.
SPEAKER_01All right.
SPEAKER_02Alright, uh finishing the chapter, verses twelve through seventeen, when he opened the sixth sea, I looked and there came a great earthquake. The sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree drops its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. Is this where we get the song The Stars Began to Fall? I think that that's like an um we sing in like November, right? Uh right before Advent. Anyway, okay. The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place, and the kings of the earth, and the magnets, and the generals, and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, fall on us and hide us from the face of the one, seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand? So everyone's hiding in the mountains and in the caves, they say, Mountains fall on us so that we don't have to get the wrath of the Lamb. And then they ask a valid question: Who is able to stand? Who is righteous? So, how do these seals fit in God's prophetic plan, Andy? And who is righteous? Who is able to stand if any of us? Um, and uh yeah, what do you what are we doing with this?
SPEAKER_01Um I the let's start with the first question that you asked: Who is able to stand? Who is righteous? And you know, a good biblical Lutheran answer is none are righteous, none stand righteous before God. And I think the big temptation in theology is always to judge ourselves righteous by our own means. Uh, the only means by which we're made righteous is through the blood of Jesus. And and um, you know, I just am continually struck by the notion in society that all that God wants is for me to do good and to be good, and that, you know, I'm at least, you know, I'm not perfect, but at least I'm not an axe murderer kind of idea. And it's kind of like we're judging ourselves on this scale. And and the truth is scripture, as I understand it, and I think Lutheran theology does as well, is all fall short of the glory of God. We all fall short, and it's through Christ alone uh that we're made righteous. I know that's outside of uh, you know, this particular passage, but that's really what comes to mind for me that none are able to stand, none are righteous. Uh, and it's fascinating that I mean they're they're hiding in the mountains, in the caves. And if you think about it, that was part of early Christianity, having to hide. Um, your other question, how do the seals fit into God's prophetic plan? Um, I don't have a specific answer to that other than what you've already named, which is that conditions exist in the world that tend to fit and that are not ideal, but one day we know the end of the story. God will bring, you know, God wins, is where I'm going with this. That uh God's righteousness, keep the faith, God's righteousness in the end will prevail, uh, but that these struggles are real. Nick.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so who is able to stand? I've had the hymn going through my head on on Christ the solid rock, I stand. Right. And so it's like if it's if it has anything to do with my own, you know, my own works, then I'm not able to stand, but I stand because of what Jesus has done for me. And so um, who is able to stand? Those who believe in Jesus, those who can point to Jesus and say, because of what he's done for me, I stand before you, not of my own accord, but because he's claimed me and uh and I belong to him. And so um I think that's that's the only the only uh person, you know, the only people who have any kind of leg to stand on is the those who have faith in Jesus. Uh how do these seals Yeah go ahead, sorry.
SPEAKER_01No, no, keep going.
SPEAKER_02How do these seals fit in God's prophetic plan? Uh, you know, I I just think that's it's part of what humans what humans are gonna do when humans are are are are are drawn away from God's plan for the world and for their lives. And so um we you know we see these things happening. Uh I you know, I don't I don't know that we've seen uh the sun become black as sackcloth, but um, you know, you could I'm sure people throughout history have seen eclipses and going, oh, that's now's the time, right? Uh but uh you know this is um I I I think that this is all happening. And I you know, the way I read this is this is not future stuff. This is stuff that is happening, has been happening for the last 2,000 years, will continue to happen until Jesus comes, because the Antichrist, the the the forces of this world that defy God and that draw people away from God are active, evil is real, and uh and this is all part of living living on this earth, this life, and uh to remain faithful in the midst of all that uh I think is um is the work of the Holy Spirit. Uh you we can say God is here, and so God is here because I still believe, even though I see all this stuff happening. Uh, what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Well, back in uh I think it was about February of 93, kind of hard to believe it was that long ago, uh, I was on a tour of Israel. My dad was one of the leaders, and we were standing literally overlooking the Valley of Megiddo in uh, you know, the valley from which the name Armageddon comes from. And dad asked the question: do we read Revelation literally or metaphorically? And he answered the question metaphorically, and I would land in the same place. Is it a description of exactly how things will happen? No, in my book, uh, although so many of the things we've described are happening and are prophesied to uh, you know, will one day happen. Uh I mean, we see it, so in many ways it's real. Uh, but the question we've not answered, Nick, uh, is uh when will Jesus return? So I don't know if you want to give that a shot, but uh Well we're only in the sixth chapter, Andy. Okay, okay. But I mean that that was one of the questions here. More general conditions prevailing over a more extended period up until the return of Jesus. So we'll get to that later, is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_02Well, I d you the question might come up later, but I don't know that we're gonna get to the answer. I yeah, I will say though, I remember 1993 when you were when you were there. I was I was enjoying seventh grade.
SPEAKER_01And that's awesome. I'm glad to hear you got through the seventh grade, Nick. That's great.
SPEAKER_02I I I I celebrated my 15th anniversary of ordination last week.
SPEAKER_01Oh, did you? Awesome.
SPEAKER_02So how many years has it been for you?
SPEAKER_01It has been, I am in year 30, oh man, 32 now. Uh it's 31 complete. And so that's a lot. Shouldn't I be retired by now, Nick? Don't you get to quit after 30 years?
SPEAKER_02So 17 years from now, I will be as close. Uh I will be as wise as you or close.
SPEAKER_01That's great. Well, you had you're probably you're more wise now, Nick. We'll just go with that. I don't think so. So uh, but yeah, this is this is really how do we read Revelation is kind of the question that I'm trying to answer. And is it literal or symbolic? And you will hear different answers based on, again, the interpretive lens that you bring. I wanted to lift that up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so you when will Jesus come? I'm reminded of Lord of the Rings when Frodo says to Gandalf, you're late. And Gandalf says, A wizard is never late. He's never early. He always arrives precisely when he means to. Meaning that wizards are on their own, their own calendar, their own schedule. They come whenever they want. And when Jesus is gonna come, whenever he wants. And it's um what?
SPEAKER_01That's it. No one knows. Good answer. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that's all I got. So Revelation 6, there we go. It's starting to get weird, it's starting to get fun. Uh, and uh, you know, I I hope I hope you realize that, you know, Andy and I are going through this, we don't have all the answers. We're just doing our best. And uh, if you certainly have any thoughts, uh, you know, we'd love to hear from you. So um uh yeah, Andy, so and any closing words of wisdom for Revelation chapter six?
SPEAKER_01Uh no, no, I don't, other than uh just to repeat something I said earlier. Somebody way back asked me, are you a pre-post or amillennialist? And uh I don't know. I don't know. But uh we're diving into it. We're trying to figure it all out.
SPEAKER_02So what does he mean by that? We'll get to that in coming weeks. Pre-post amillen, yeah. So okay. We'll we'll dive into that fun stuff coming soon. Yeah, to the thousand years.
SPEAKER_01All right. See you next.
SPEAKER_02Take care.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for being with us.